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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

saveflipper.ca

371–380 of 916 posts

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#371
I admired the Flipper Zero, but it's not something I have skills to exploit. Canada banning them ensured my order. It was in the mail on the day that I saw an article about the USA considering a ban. It's on my desk. I have no use for it. But I damn sure made sure I'd get one before I couldn't.

What a lousy reason to buy something. It makes me feel shitty about the world.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone you would label a ‘crime denier’ because I feel the problem is definitely smaller than in the past and it is generally overstated in the media. That is precisely why I think we should focus on organized crime and the driving clearing houses rather than individual street-level criminals.

I used to be like that, then I started seeing things happening myself. The first time you see Kia Boyz smashing windows and grabbing purses in a grocery store parking lot at noon on a Sunday is an eye opener (Do they want to get caught? this is pretty blatant, maybe they know we don't have many police these days). I always thought our crime problem was limited to porch piracy and street parked cars getting their wind…

I hear what you're saying, I live in SF. My opinions are evolving on the subject. There is a lot of not profit-driven vandalism and violence that I witness here and disrupting fencers will obviously do nothing for that.

But for car theft & other profit-driven commodity thefts, I do think targeting the markets can often be very effective.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#373

Banning either is silly. Locks on things in the physical world can only be a deterrent because physical objects are subject to much easier brute force attacks than a problem in the digital world is. If you forced automakers to make their digital keys more secure, it wouldn't improve security, because you could still winch the whole car on to a rental trailer in 30 seconds. The Kia Boys notwithstanding, basically all…

Replay and CANbus attacks are easy enough that I don't think that's the case.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vIrqKRIUCiE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lkT9Fa1lA

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#374
post #153

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You can say the same thing about banning guns (although I just realized that's a bit of a stretch) If people acted responsibly we would not need to ban guns.

> If people acted responsibly we would not need to ban guns.

Nearly everyone that does own a gun acts responsibly with it. The very few that don't do cause damage however. But the same with cars and many other things. Nearly everyone is a responsible driver but there are some that choose to drive too fast, while intoxicated, not paying attention, etc.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#375
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All CANBUS packages that are useful to drive a car should be encrypted using a public/private key that is in the owner key. Decryption chips are cheap and fast.

Maintenance is a big key management problem though: if only the owner has it, there will be problems when people inevitably lose it. If there are shared keys for service departments or databases, thieves will get access to them. Things like time-limited on-demand keys can limit those problems but now you can’t get your car serviced when Toyota’s servers go down and they need to commit to not breaking API compatibilit…

My Ducati bike had immobilizers that would prevent the bike being started without the key or the per-bike code card. When it was stolen, the thieves tried all manner of things to start it, including drilling through the ignition keyhole. I managed to get it all fixed and the bike still ran. Without the immobilizer, someone else would be riding my bike.

That's no different from this proposal. You just give them the keys, or the key card (or red key) if you've lost the keys.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#376

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes. There are already laws against theft. They apply to vehicles, secure and insecure alike. A law mandating a minimum level of security, as GP suggests, seems to me to fit the suggestion, that auto manufacturers have…

Every car on the market now has a flaw where I can put a air wedge on your door and a coat hanger on the lock button.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You can just say "I have no defense of my statement" instead of acting like I'm the one out of line. You claimed religious norms are a course in ethics, I provided counter examples. Try and do better.

your handle is a throwaway - do better.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#378
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious norms guide behavior. They are a course in ethics for those without undergraduate education.

Nietzsche gave us a religion-free solution in the concept of Ubermensch 150 years ago, it's still too controversial today.

Yes, another example is Humanism.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#379

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

We already identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals, we just don't hand out custodial sentences. Being in jail/prison sucks and is a good incentive to not steal cars. Plus it is impossible to steal cars while locked up.

> We already identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals...

We've given up on that part in many instances.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#380
Can you actually use a FlipperZero to steal a car though? There's aftermarket firmwares which unlocks additional capabilities, but as far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a break in car fob encryption that would actually let you use a FlipperZero to steal a car without having the key in the first place, at which point you could just use the key.
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