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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#251

Post by kube-system »

twodave wrote: post #193
acdha wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintenance is a big key management problem though: if only the owner has it, there will be problems when people inevitably lose it. If there are shared keys for service departments or databases, thieves will get access to them. Things like time-limited on-demand keys can limit those problems but now you can’t get your car serviced when Toyota’s servers go down and they need to commit to not breaking API compatibilit…

The manufacturer should maintain a root cert that can be used. If that root cert is compromised then they should have a way of rotating keys if the vehicle and physical keys are present. Breaches then constitute what amounts to a software recall, putting the onus on the manufacturer to report them or be held liable for thefts. The recall notice puts the liability on the driver to have their vehicle updated (for free)…

To do that, we'd probably need to accept one of these as a consequence:

1. all cars must be internet connected so they can pull CRLs

2. dealers and locksmiths are no longer able to replace keys, you will have to ship the car back to the manufacturer if you lose your keys.

Because there's no secure way to hand out the root cert to the thousands of organizations authorized to replace keys today.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#252

Post by Draiken »

philwelch wrote: post #113
bongodongobob wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has the most prisoners per capita, but go on. "They aren't doing enough about car hackers! Car hackers are just running free and the gubmint won't stop them!" Ridiculous.

That’s actually not true anymore. El Salvador has the most prisoners per capita now. They also have a lower murder rate than the US. The lowest murder rate in the entire Western Hemisphere, actually. Previously they had the highest murder rate in the world. Mass incarceration works. It doesn’t work in the US because we didn’t do enough of it.

Works for who? The corporations profiting from slave prison labor?

If we at least arrested the corrupt white collar criminals that never get punished, then we could look at this as something more than an uninformed extreme measure.

Imagine if wage theft wasn't merely a fine? Imagine if corruption was actually prosecuted? Then we can talk! /s

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#253

Post by keiferski »

yayitswei wrote: post #247
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Ethical norms are sufficient in a homogeneous society, but the "trustless" trend has enabled collaboration with ever larger groups of people with reduced need for trust. I'm thinking blockchains, cryptography, the stock market, the concept of limited liability, and law itself.

Ah yes, I completely forgot about blockchain. Trustless is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#254

Post by hnburnsy »

newsclues wrote: post #41

Canada needs to reinstate the national port police, and actually do their job in policing. Policy changes for cars or technology will not solve the lawlessness in Canada.

Yup!

Was your car stolen? It may have left Canada through the Port of Montreal

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-port-stolen...

>A worker at the port, who asked not to be identified because they are not authorized to speak publicly, suggested the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) doesn't do enough spot checks.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#255

Post by mbork_pl »

quatrefoil wrote: post #191
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Religious norms and laws were the same for much of history. You could get stoned for adultery for a good while... The decoupling of the two is a pretty recent phenomenon. For a while after, religious and secular norms still provided a fairly rigid template for how you're supposed to behave, but we dismantled a lot of that too. For good reasons, just with a lot of unforeseen consequences. I don't think the phenomenon…

> For good reasons

I wouldn't be so sure...

> just with a lot of unforeseen consequences.

Exactly, a classical case of Chesterton's fence.

> The laws we're passing are a consequence of belief systems too.

Some of them are (and you're making a very good point here!), but some of them may be just pragmatic.

> For people who see the world that way, these beliefs are unfalsifiable

Again, very true.

> just like the belief in an adultery-hating god.

As a Catholic, I think I can tell you that it might be more nuanced. I believe that ethical norms are not some arbitrary rules, but are a bit like the part of a manual for some device that says under what conditions the device works properly and under what conditions it may break, only for humans. As in "if you commit adultery, you will end up unhappy; you have been warned". (Cf. 1 Corinthians 12, 6 – https://bible.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/6#54006012) Although IANTP ("I am not the pope";-)), of course, and neither am I a theologian, so take this with a grain of salt.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#256

Post by blitzar »

swozey wrote: post #213
hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

I will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city. I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop. I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked…

> I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that

Its actually a fair bit cheaper to buy a $25k car than a $250k car.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#257

Post by rvnx »

whimsicalism wrote: post #233
ryandrake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

USA crime is still very low compared to pretty much the entire 20th century, it seems early to proclaim certain approaches as a failure. FWIW, catalytic converter theft was recently a big problem in the US and the classic approach of getting the FBI involved, identifying the high-level fencers and arresting, was incredibly effective and cat thefts have plummeted. I suspect disrupting the organized crime in Canada wou…

It's only the case if people don't deny that the crimes exist, and Canada might suffer a bit from that lack of recognition.

In France as well, if you mention that there is criminality, people will frown upon you.

"No it's 100% safe country, it is a feeling of being unsafe".

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#258

Post by aidenn0 »

AYBABTME wrote: post #57
markhahn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic depends on law-breakers being fully rational agents. Yes, there are some, at least some of the time, but very few.

If they're not rational, they can go to jail? Isn't that the idea of jails: take people out of the system if they refuse to act by the rules of the system at other people's detriment.

That is one of 4 reasons for jails. The other 3 are:

- Rehabilitation

- Retribution

- Deterrence

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#259

Post by Nursie »

nox101 wrote: post #237
aidenn0 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting. This is a necessary consequence of civilization. If you have a city of 8 million people, then you have 80,000 people in the bottom percentile of behavior by normative ethics. If some…

The largest metro area on the planet, Tokyo, 34 million people, is also the one of the safest with the extremely low crime. Seoul, and Singapore are both around 10 million and are also safe with low crime.

Japanese criminal procedure is … interesting from what I can tell. There is a very high conviction rate, suspiciously so.

Singapore is questionably democratic, utilises corporal punishment and is described by some as a police state. I think it’s fair to say that while a strong sense of community ethics may be present in Singapore, it’s certainly not the only thing holding people in line.

Seoul I know little about.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#260

Post by aidenn0 »

nox101 wrote: post #237
aidenn0 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting. This is a necessary consequence of civilization. If you have a city of 8 million people, then you have 80,000 people in the bottom percentile of behavior by normative ethics. If some…

The largest metro area on the planet, Tokyo, 34 million people, is also the one of the safest with the extremely low crime. Seoul, and Singapore are both around 10 million and are also safe with low crime.

It's also illegal to possess a gun in Tokyo, not just illegal to shoot somebody.
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