iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol • Hacker News Board

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#31

Post by GeekyBear » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:01 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #18

lapetitejort wrote: post #13

Advanced encryption, until it comes time to text 70% of the phones in the world, in which case it defaults to a protocol released 32 years ago.

Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words. They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol. Apple, when it comes to their values, is all lip service. I have intimate experience here with them both openly lying and purposefully deceiving their user base in this case.

> the developed encrypted RCS protocol

Google's proprietary closed source fork of RCS?

> Google's version of RCS... is definitely proprietary, by the way. If this is supposed to be a standard, there's no way for a third-party to use Google's RCS APIs right now. Some messaging apps, like Beeper, have asked Google about integrating RCS and were told there's no public RCS API and no plans to build one.

If you want to implement RCS, you'll need to run the messages through some kind of service, and who provides that server? It will probably be Google... So the pitch for Apple to adopt RCS isn't just this public-good nonsense about making texts with Android users better; it's also about running Apple's messages through Google servers. Google profits in both server fees and data acquisition.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/new-google-site-begs...

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#32

Post by adamtaylor_13 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:04 PM UTC

yesimahuman wrote: post #11

Pretty great advertisement for Signal, as the sole cross-platform option in the PQC bucket. Does it seem likely they will match Apple here eventually?

In my experience, these markets can overlap but don’t necessarily always do so.

I message everyone via iMessage, and while I enjoy the feeling of security from the blue bubble it’s not a must-have for me. Signal on the other hand seems like a must-have for many people living under oppressive regimes or whose data is significantly more valuable than mine.

I am one data point, but that’s what I’ve noticed in my bubble.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#33

Post by kergonath » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:05 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #18

lapetitejort wrote: post #13

Advanced encryption, until it comes time to text 70% of the phones in the world, in which case it defaults to a protocol released 32 years ago.

Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words. They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol. Apple, when it comes to their values, is all lip service. I have intimate experience here with them both openly lying and purposefully deceiving their user base in this case.

> Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words.

I saw that you moved the goalposts in your reply, but anyway: which words?

> They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol.

The protocol that was designed by Google and in which Google’s infrastructure is crucial? It’s not Apple’s fault that RCS does not have mandatory end-to-end encryption.

> I have intimate experience here with them both openly lying and purposefully deceiving their user base in this case.

Do you mean that they lied to you personnally? You should write about that, it sounds much more interesting.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#34

Post by yesimahuman » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:09 PM UTC

adamtaylor_13 wrote: post #32

yesimahuman wrote: post #11

Pretty great advertisement for Signal, as the sole cross-platform option in the PQC bucket. Does it seem likely they will match Apple here eventually?

In my experience, these markets can overlap but don’t necessarily always do so. I message everyone via iMessage, and while I enjoy the feeling of security from the blue bubble it’s not a must-have for me. Signal on the other hand seems like a must-have for many people living under oppressive regimes or whose data is significantly more valuable than mine. I am one data point, but that’s what I’ve noticed in my bubble.

For me, Signal is so much better for my friend or work group chats. My friends are on a mix of devices and platforms, and Signal is a lot nicer for embedded media sharing. And the auto disappearing feature is a must!

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#35

Post by Aaargh20318 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:10 PM UTC

lapetitejort wrote: post #13

Advanced encryption, until it comes time to text 70% of the phones in the world, in which case it defaults to a protocol released 32 years ago.

They have already announced they will add support for RCS this year (https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/), so not exactly a protocol released 32 years ago. It’s probably coming in iOS 18

Still unencrypted though, because the RCS standard does not include encryption.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#36

Post by tsunamifury » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:10 PM UTC

matthew-wegner wrote: post #30

tsunamifury wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words. They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol. Apple, when it comes to their values, is all lip service. I have intimate experience here with them both openly lying and purposefully deceiving their user base in this case.

> They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol. End-to-end RCS encryption is via proprietary Google extension and not even available to other Android RCS messaging apps.

It was made available to Apple.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#37

Post by adamtaylor_13 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:12 PM UTC

yesimahuman wrote: post #34

adamtaylor_13 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, these markets can overlap but don’t necessarily always do so. I message everyone via iMessage, and while I enjoy the feeling of security from the blue bubble it’s not a must-have for me. Signal on the other hand seems like a must-have for many people living under oppressive regimes or whose data is significantly more valuable than mine. I am one data point, but that’s what I’ve noticed in my bubble.

For me, Signal is so much better for my friend or work group chats. My friends are on a mix of devices and platforms, and Signal is a lot nicer for embedded media sharing. And the auto disappearing feature is a must!

Hmm… Does signal only really work when everyone uses it? Or can you include people who are just using regular SMS?

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#38

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:12 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #24

Jtsummers wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What word? They never said they'd open iMessage. FaceTime is what they intended (or at least Jobs announced the intent) to open, and then that got caught up in a patent dispute.

No, they could have shipped a product on android, or they could have used secure RCS, or several other things. FaceTime is not really true either. This was a convenient mistruth. There were several way to remedy that situation. Also your misremembering iMessage there was no such issue.

You wrote:

> Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words.

What word did they not back up with respect to iMessage? When did they ever say they'd open it up?

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#39

Post by tsunamifury » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:12 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #33

tsunamifury wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words. They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol. Apple, when it comes to their values, is all lip service. I have intimate experience here with them both openly lying and purposefully deceiving their user base in this case.

> Yes but that would have meant giving up sales in exchange for actually backing up their words. I saw that you moved the goalposts in your reply, but anyway: which words? > They aren’t even going to use the developed encrypted RCS protocol. The protocol that was designed by Google and in which Google’s infrastructure is crucial? It’s not Apple’s fault that RCS does not have mandatory end-to-end encryption. > I have…

I worked on several integration attempts between Apple and Google.

They often presented specs that clearly showed security holes then simply would deny they were there or say “that’s secure”. It was a truly wild experience.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#40

Post by drcongo » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:15 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #24

Jtsummers wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What word? They never said they'd open iMessage. FaceTime is what they intended (or at least Jobs announced the intent) to open, and then that got caught up in a patent dispute.

No, they could have shipped a product on android, or they could have used secure RCS, or several other things. FaceTime is not really true either. This was a convenient mistruth. There were several way to remedy that situation. Also your misremembering iMessage there was no such issue.

FaceTime is definitely true. I've used it.