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Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

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Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#171

Post by kyriakos »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #69
cybrox wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't care because Apple has made sure they don't care. They have crippled web app adoption for years to push the app store and now argue that "well, only a few people use that anyways". How many apps in the app store are just webviews? I myself have paid apple to publish webview wrappers around pages because they strictly raise users to expect these, instead of the web apps they have no control over (and cann…

How are Android web apps going? An argument based on a hypothetical is inherently weak.

I have 3 on my home screen right now. Not saying I can't replace them with regular apps but I see no reason since they work fine and do what they're supposed to.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#172

Post by FireBeyond »

pornel wrote: post #59

It's incredibly convenient for Apple that there's overlap between safety features and anti-competive behaviors. Every time somebody says "I don't want vendor lock-in", they flip it to "Oh, so you don't want safety?" But these are often false dichotomies created by Apple. Reviewing and rejecting apps for fraud and malware is great, but Apple bundled that with rejecting apps for using the word "Android" and whatever ot…

And Apple has no end of people willing to carry their water on this. With the recent LastPass debacle you actually had John Gruber saying things like:

> Instead, the scam LassPass app tries to steer you to creating a “pro” account subscription for $2/month, $10/year, or a $50 lifetime purchase. Those are actually low prices for a scam app — a lot of scammy apps try to charge like $10/week.

(emphasis mine)

He also claims, without any way to know, that "it doesn't look like this was made to steal LastPass credentials".

The whole article is very much a "yeah it sucks and shouldn't happen, but this is no big deal, really, why are you getting all up in Apple's face about it?" vibe.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#173

Post by mmcnl »

dubcanada wrote: post #20
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

As much as I would love to agree, the general population really does not care about features like "home screen web apps". Nobody outside of HN even knows what they are. Everyone just goes on the app store and downloads random website app. Even if it is just a browser app that renders a website. Apple would have to eliminate something that people actually care about for any boycott Apple to happen.

True, but it's not end users who should be caring about this at all, it's the developers. Developers can leverage the freedom of the web with PWAs: no gatekeepers, no 30% tax, no approvals. So it threatens the App Store model of Apple, even though PWAs are not nearly capable enough to do that today. But with this move, they sure won't be capable enough in the future either.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#174

Post by mmcnl »

roenxi wrote: post #70
cybrox wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't care because Apple has made sure they don't care. They have crippled web app adoption for years to push the app store and now argue that "well, only a few people use that anyways". How many apps in the app store are just webviews? I myself have paid apple to publish webview wrappers around pages because they strictly raise users to expect these, instead of the web apps they have no control over (and cann…

I want my mother to have as safe a phone as possible with a bare minimum of ways she can accidentally get hacked. Ideally with a gatekeeper between her and anything she is going to install that has permission to use phone features; like cameras. She would very much concur, insofar as she understands the issues. She's using an iPhone specifically because Apple doesn't go for shenanigans like multiple ways to get apps…

Would you say this applies to macOS too? And why or why not?

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#175

Post by mmcnl »

roenxi wrote: post #90
pxoe wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why should everyone else obide by that level of strictness of control and limitations, particularly ones that are brought upon by people who can't really use their phone well? put it in a parental control mode, have that limit functionality, instead of being like 'well...people who can't use their phones, wouldn't be able to use those features - so they need to go'. there should be a way to make a phone secure (inclu…

> why should everyone else... They shouldn't. Everyone should buy the phone that best suits their needs. That might be an Android phone or a whatever. Windows maybe. They're all good phones. The issue is, for my family that is iPhones and people like Mr. Sweeney are trying to wheedle the EU into making iPhones worse for iPhone buyers. We don't need regulators trying to help by making iPhones worse. If you don't like…

That is because Apple is abusing the power they have as a gatekeeper. That's the problem with centralized power: shift all power to one central place and suddenly the power gets abused.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#176

Post by mmcnl »

formerly_proven wrote: post #28
edhelas wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because... everything was made from de beginning to push people to go to the App Store.

No, I use iOS and friends in part because I want good, well-made apps that work well and integrate into the OS well - and not poorly made webapps that don't have an address bar. To that end I dislike all the faux-native iOS apps that are just a webview with a menu. It's always quite obvious when people do that. So even if I would've known about HSWAs being a thing (and not just "bookmarks on the home screen", which i…

Everything is a trade-off. You can't publish native apps without Apple's 30% tax for example.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#177

Post by roenxi »

mmcnl wrote: post #174
roenxi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want my mother to have as safe a phone as possible with a bare minimum of ways she can accidentally get hacked. Ideally with a gatekeeper between her and anything she is going to install that has permission to use phone features; like cameras. She would very much concur, insofar as she understands the issues. She's using an iPhone specifically because Apple doesn't go for shenanigans like multiple ways to get apps…

Would you say this applies to macOS too? And why or why not?

The argument applies. I wouldn't use a computer with an app store though; I understand computers a lot better than phones.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#178

Post by smoldesu »

pxoe wrote: post #110
roenxi wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why should everyone else... They shouldn't. Everyone should buy the phone that best suits their needs. That might be an Android phone or a whatever. Windows maybe. They're all good phones. The issue is, for my family that is iPhones and people like Mr. Sweeney are trying to wheedle the EU into making iPhones worse for iPhone buyers. We don't need regulators trying to help by making iPhones worse. If you don't like…

and iphone isn't that phone. with app store and browser app access, it wouldn't suit needs of somebody who might get "hacked" or scammed or just believe things and press a wrong button. not in its regular state anyway, not without parental controls or accessibility mode. not letting sideloading in doesn't mean that app store doesn't have its scammy apps with in-app purchases and whatever, and not allowing pwas doesn'…

Not to mention, malware like Pegasus has proven that you can use Apple's default software as a malware delivery mechanism. Anyone that configures iMessage to working condition was vulnerable to their attack, not just sideloaders or browser modders.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#179

Post by nojvek »

iOS and Android pretty much have a duopoly on mobile OSs.

iOS at-least cares about user privacy but extracts a huge rent for it.

I’m just sad how botched their implementation of PWAs and web apps as first class citizen is.

Seems like Apple has run out of ideas on how to add genuine value to their userbase, so they’re resorting to rent extraction.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#180

Post by jijijijij »

dubcanada wrote: post #20
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

As much as I would love to agree, the general population really does not care about features like "home screen web apps". Nobody outside of HN even knows what they are. Everyone just goes on the app store and downloads random website app. Even if it is just a browser app that renders a website. Apple would have to eliminate something that people actually care about for any boycott Apple to happen.

> Nobody outside of HN even knows what they are.

At least, FetLife users do. The default group has more than 10 million members, so that's not nothing.

I can totally see how small, and/or web-ish services would prefer the PWA route, even if violating the prude Appstore's TOS wasn't their issue. Many apps in the Appstore are just wrapped webapps anyway, so why bother with Apple's shenanigans?!

Wasn't until recently, iOS didn't support web push notifications... which are quite essential for lots of devs to even consider putting resources into a PWA, I presume. So, that may be one of the reasons we don't see them more frequently yet.

Honestly, not hard to instruct users to "install" web apps. And if they've done it once, they may explore this option with other websites on their own. I think, there is good reason for Apple to be afraid of this option, as threat to their income/extortion source - cuz maybe their infrastructure isn't that important a contribution as claimed.

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