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Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

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Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#101

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Thorrez wrote: post #46

What are people's thoughts on Apple's argument: >Addressing the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps using alternative browser engines would require building an entirely new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS and was not practical to undertake given the other demands of the DMA and the very low user adoption of Home Screen web apps. >In short, Apple is saying it kn…

Lots of excuses are possible. How about, folks use the web on other platforms right now.

Further, they publish all sorts of apps that other people make without inserting 600 APIs. So, no issue, almost by construction.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#102

Post by Yujf »

ecf wrote: post #66
endisneigh wrote: post #16

I wish all of these folks complaining about Apple would go on strike and stop developing stuff on their hardware instead of whining. Even better if they could make their own hardware without any of the supposed baggage with the software. A lot of these companies whining are worth billions so they can afford it. Of course, they won’t because they want money just like Apple, but if Spotify, epic etc stopped working on…

This. ALL OF THIS IS A NON ISSUE. All. Of. It. These people won’t take one ounce of responsibility and not buy the damn thing.

It is an issue, there is not enough choice. I don't want apple so I buy an android but android is also flawed in major ways. There is just no winning as a consumer.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#103

Post by loloquwowndueo »

ufocia wrote: post #98
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. Smirk aside, yes I have tried Android devices before and I find them basically unusable so iOS it is for me. Not in the EU so these changes don’t affect me, that may play a role.

Funny. That's how I feel about iOS. I have an issued iOS device that I almost never use because the UI is unintuitive to me. I guess there are 10 types of people in this world. Those who like the iOS UI and those who don't.

Correct :) it’s definitely a matter of preference. If your preference is shallow enough that you can switch depending on which of the two companies is being more evil today, that’s fine - but for the majority of people, which OS works best for them is a very deeply ingrained preference that’s not so easily tossed aside.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#104

Post by szasamasa »

steve1977 wrote: post #4
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

I’ve always been vocal against web apps and pro native apps. Actions like this and also the direction Apple is taking with SwiftUI actually makes me interested in web apps again.

I can assure you now it is totally possible to create the same standalone UX on iPhone from the web more securely than using a native app... if Apple is forced to allow at least other browser engines to use web capabilities securely (just like they could do this on macOS or any OS is capable)

is it easy to create good web UX, not... most web desgners are not real programmers and most websites are terrible, I do not really use many web apps but plenty of them might be terrible now, too

but it all comes down to the developer behind the product... if you get less native offerings in the future (there are areas where native is better, it is actually also a good bot protection to require native apps) then your good programmers simply deliver good web apps to you and it actually will be the same UX only cheaper

interestingly enough, if everybody has to pay the apple tax and it is the user who pays it in the end, developers may just stay by native, no competitive pressure

one area is that smaller innovative apps from even sole developers may never come to realisation because it is expensive to pay android and ios developers...

I just checked lichess... it is a mixed website that is not responsive (on smaller screens terrible) but uses webassembly for stockfish, that is a plus

still one of the biggest expense is 1 or 2 app developers, if they did not get 500k donations they might not even exist because of app store restrictions... that would be a loss

actually they should have just invest that money to create a responsive design and maybe some offline functionality and they could deploy "apps" on iPhones and Android and actually on all desktops... but you might just want to use lichess as tabs there, one tab for analysis, one for broadcasts etc...

that is a good example how we might lose great small projects like lichess... and why we only have 2 greats chess sites, one getting 100 million dollar from subscriptions... it is simply difficult to create a cross platform solution even if the stockfish ai is free and open source

one monopoly creates others...

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#105

Post by chacham15 »

Someone wrote: post #91
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

> The DMA requires free interoperability, and Apple has imposed a very anti-competitive fee. From comments I read, quite a few people want it to require free interoperability, but I don’t see how it does. I even think it sort-of explicitly allows gatekeepers to keep charging for access. The pre-amble, point 62 starts with “For software application stores, online search engines and online social networking services li…

> it only talks about access to SDKs, specs of device ports, ability to make the same system calls

The Apple App store uses SDKs + system calls to install other apps, right? So, if you're allowed to sideload your own app store it should be able to do the same freely. So, the question then becomes about sideloading which I think you're supposed to be able to do freely as well.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#106

Post by ufocia »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #61
zer00eyz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of people in Apple CS. Most of them are loyal to apple, and have worked there long term. Apple takes good care of its "regular people" in the states.

I know an Apple worker (don't know what you mean by CS), and he's worked there for decades and from all reports they do treat the employees they value very well. Not sure about the more expendable ones though. In any case, my comment was a little tongue in cheek.

"Apple worker" sounds licentious.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#107

Post by dkjaudyeqooe »

ufocia wrote: post #106
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know an Apple worker (don't know what you mean by CS), and he's worked there for decades and from all reports they do treat the employees they value very well. Not sure about the more expendable ones though. In any case, my comment was a little tongue in cheek.

"Apple worker" sounds licentious.

I didn't want to spell it out, but he sells his mind to Apple for money.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#108

Post by ufocia »

curt15 wrote: post #64
cybrox wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't care because Apple has made sure they don't care. They have crippled web app adoption for years to push the app store and now argue that "well, only a few people use that anyways". How many apps in the app store are just webviews? I myself have paid apple to publish webview wrappers around pages because they strictly raise users to expect these, instead of the web apps they have no control over (and cann…

Do you think there's a general lack of awareness or education these days about the world wide web? People who grew up with the internet couldn't get by without knowing the possibilities of websites and web browsers. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I view web apps through that lens -- if an "app" merely wraps a website or otherwise relies on internet connectivity for core functionality I'd rather just use a full-bloo…

Yes, except maybe there could be a user setting to disable showing of the browser chrome. I don't like wrapper bloatware, but would like to be able to see that the app is essentially a bookmark and have a possibility of troubleshooting it.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#109

Post by ufocia »

throwaway11460 wrote: post #67
cybrox wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't care because Apple has made sure they don't care. They have crippled web app adoption for years to push the app store and now argue that "well, only a few people use that anyways". How many apps in the app store are just webviews? I myself have paid apple to publish webview wrappers around pages because they strictly raise users to expect these, instead of the web apps they have no control over (and cann…

How many people use them on Android? Nobody around me... The Add to home prompt is "that thing you always click no or you get ads".

More than you think really. I have some apps on my devices that are clearly webviews, which is apparent when they crap out.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#110

Post by pxoe »

roenxi wrote: post #90
pxoe wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why should everyone else obide by that level of strictness of control and limitations, particularly ones that are brought upon by people who can't really use their phone well? put it in a parental control mode, have that limit functionality, instead of being like 'well...people who can't use their phones, wouldn't be able to use those features - so they need to go'. there should be a way to make a phone secure (inclu…

> why should everyone else... They shouldn't. Everyone should buy the phone that best suits their needs. That might be an Android phone or a whatever. Windows maybe. They're all good phones. The issue is, for my family that is iPhones and people like Mr. Sweeney are trying to wheedle the EU into making iPhones worse for iPhone buyers. We don't need regulators trying to help by making iPhones worse. If you don't like…

and iphone isn't that phone. with app store and browser app access, it wouldn't suit needs of somebody who might get "hacked" or scammed or just believe things and press a wrong button. not in its regular state anyway, not without parental controls or accessibility mode.

not letting sideloading in doesn't mean that app store doesn't have its scammy apps with in-app purchases and whatever, and not allowing pwas doesn't mean that those exact same web apps aren't available via safari as a website. if those are the kinds of things, installing apps and going to websites, things that are very much available on a regular iphone, that are being deemed unsafe for somebody, an iphone is not a good fit for them.

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