Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 329 posts

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#291

Post by themacguffinman »

scarface_74 wrote: post #290
themacguffinman wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. > Is it not wor…

> Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. And neither o…

> Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from…

Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading. They are also permissive on cloud gaming beyond Apple's minimal "reader app" exemption, which is why Microsoft has an xCloud app on Android and hasn't planned one for iOS.

> And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products.

Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well.

Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app.

> Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”?

I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great.

> Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic.

Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#292

Post by chii »

scarface_74 wrote: post #289
a13o wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because Unreal Engine doesn't support HTML5 games? They did the next best thing, which is to sideload the app that UE can build.

So no major app developer has been motivated enough to create a PWA to avoid the “Google tax” even though the experience is suppose to be so much better on Android?

It's a distraction to argue that just because PWA is not more common it is useless.

PWA keeps the ecosystem honest. It doesn't have to be the premier platform of choice, but it needs to be a choice available.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#293

Post by scarface_74 »

themacguffinman wrote: post #291
scarface_74 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. And neither o…

> Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading. They are also permissive on cloud gaming beyond Apple's minimal "reader app" exemption, which is why Microsoft has an xCloud app on Android and hasn't planned one for iOS. > And neither of those pay the “A…

> Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading

And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough?

> Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well.

If you buy in the app yes they want their cut. Facebook gets to charge the difference. This does not preclude Facebook from selling the same thing outside of the App Store.

> Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app

SaaS apps are mostly B2B and involve contracts with the business where they just surface functionality through the App Store. I’ve worked for four SaaS providers that have Android and iPhone apps and none of them did there six figure contracts through the App Store.

> I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great.

So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”?

> Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it.

People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough.

https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/

https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-a...

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#294

Post by themacguffinman »

scarface_74 wrote: post #293
themacguffinman wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading. They are also permissive on cloud gaming beyond Apple's minimal "reader app" exemption, which is why Microsoft has an xCloud app on Android and hasn't planned one for iOS. > And neither of those pay the “A…

> Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but…

> And yet no major developer does it.

Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix.

> You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough?

> So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”?

Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms like iOS.

> SaaS apps are mostly B2B

B2B naturally having an out doesn't mean Apple's stranglehold over the B2C market through web platform limitations is okay. Apple never had a viable way to take a cut of B2B, no one is arguing that they are trying to protect B2B revenue, the point is that they are trying to protect B2C revenue and they shouldn't be able to

> People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough.

Consumers don't strictly expect a completely native like experience on apps either. Both Google and Facebook are profitable enough (in fact some of the most profitable in the world) that they can afford to make the best experience on every platform, including desktop.

The McDonald's app is obviously some web wrapper, it doesn't stop people from buying McDonald's. So is Amazon Shopping and Spotify and your local bank.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#295

Post by johnnyanmac »

acdha wrote: post #274
philistine wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People honestly believed that Apple could have flipped a switch and make Flash work on iPhone. It was garbage, which couldn’t run on such a puny processor without butchering your battery. Most people were using it for video anyway, and H.264 playback on the browser was well on its way.

It’s really weird because Flash existed on Android, and it sucked. Even the hardcore anti-Apple fanboys were unwilling to defend it much at the time because everyone knew how much battery and RAM it used, and how poorly Flash content designed for desktop screens and controls worked on phones. I don’t love how other things were locked down, but losing Flash for the open web was an unabashed win.

It sucked but a lot of things on early android sucked. Browsers were a moving target in general for the first few years. I don't miss it (well, outside of my childhood web games. But much of that has been preserved or ported), but I sure don't hail Apple as a hero for accelerating the downfall.

I think the biggest issue here is that even a decade out there haven't been true flash replacements in some sectors of tech. e.g. we still call it "Flash animation", but I feel the early death of Flash stalled American animation for a good 5 years since there was simply no good artist tool for such stuff in the early 2010's

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#296

Post by johnnyanmac »

scarface_74 wrote: post #240
mmcnl wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% _today_. Strategic chess moves like this are about the next decade. The web is becoming more and more powerful and who says Fortnite can't run in a browser in 5 years? Especially if EU forces Apple to allow alternative browser engines that Apple can't control. It's an existential threat to the App Store model.

And what is stopping Epic from using a PWA today on Android of its just Apple holding them back?

>what is stopping Epic from using a PWA today

Unreal and Unity tried in early 2010's to do web based deployment, and it was awful. They pretty much stopped by the mid 2010's. Basically the big game engines just don't support it. It's technically still in Unity at least (I don't think it's in Unreal, but I can be wrong), but it is far from stable.

WebGPU and WebAssembly is giving them both the optimism to try and boot some of that up again, and Cloud gaming is a big momentum factor that they will want to aim for. so I wouldn't rule out the idea of it coming back by the end of the decade. Will Fortnite specifically bother with it? Who knows? There's so many directions this can go and IOS's current decisions will affect a lot of that.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#297

Post by scarface_74 »

themacguffinman wrote: post #294
scarface_74 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but…

> And yet no major developer does it. Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix. > You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? Yes, because you've already made the native app while…

> Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix

And how is that relevant for phones?

> Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms like iOS.

A 30% savings in the cost to go after 70% of the market is not enough of a motivation? New games/apps are coming out all of the time. Why not do web first if web technology is good enough and capture both the desktop and Android?

In most of the rest of the world, iOS has much less market share than in the US.

> Apple never had a viable way to take a cut of B2B, no one is arguing that they are trying to protect B2B revenue, the point is that they are trying to protect B2C revenue and they shouldn't be able to

On my phone right now, I pay for Microsoft Office, Netflix, HBO Max, Kindle books, Amazon Prime (including Video) and Disney+ outside of the App Store.

I don’t subscribe to Spotify. But you can’t buy a Spotify subscription on the App Store.

All of Google’s apps that have a for pay component can be subscribed to outside of the App Store and you can’t subscribe to YouTube TV using in app purchases.

> Both Google and Facebook are profitable enough (in fact some of the most profitable in the world) that they can afford to make the best experience on every platform, including desktop.

The first B2B SaaS company I worked for after mobile became a thing had two developers writing the front end apps for both iOS and Android using native tools.

It doesn’t take a trillion dollar market cap company to maintain native apps.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#298

Post by themacguffinman »

scarface_74 wrote: post #297
themacguffinman wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet no major developer does it. Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix. > You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? Yes, because you've already made the native app while…

> Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix And how is that relevant for phones? > Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms…

> And how is that relevant for phones?

Epic Games makes and publishes games for phones. Fire tablet apps and its app store are just Android apps, it's just that Amazon doesn't sell phones so they don't brand it like that.

> A 30% savings in the cost to go after 70% of the market is not enough of a motivation? New games/apps are coming out all of the time. Why not do web first if web technology is good enough and capture both the desktop and Android?

> In most of the rest of the world, iOS has much less market share than in the US.

That's why I precisely said "in terms of revenue". iOS has the users with the most spending even though they have vastly less marketshare. Apple has been able to evade antitrust action for this reason but mobile developers know that the majority of B2C revenue typically comes from Apple platforms, so they have a stranglehold there.

> On my phone right now, I pay for ... outside of the App Store.

Again with the "reader app" exemption. Yes, the largest content brands & services can sometimes get consumers to use alternative billing methods. Apple's heavy anti-steering rules (which are still heavy and obviously malicious compliance after the recent court case) still make it difficult, assuming it's even possible because most non-megacorp apps are not delivering content they are delivering functionality which has no "reader app" exemption.

Spotify used to use in-app billing but fortunately for them they became one of the biggest streaming services in the world so they have some leverage now.

> The first B2B SaaS company I worked for after mobile became a thing had two developers writing the front end apps for both iOS and Android using native tools.

A B2B SaaS company I worked for also tried to do the same thing and it worked out terribly, they ran away from native apps. Companies often make mistakes. It's not surprising, the ROI on native is almost never there which is why it's extremely rare in B2B. Hey, I can generalize from my one experience too.

That's not even the argument here, just because it doesn't require a trillion dollar market cap doesn't make it a business decision that Apple should be able to force. Profit margins on B2B are generally way higher than B2C, the way B2C companies typically achieve high profitability is via ads on valuable content which is a tough ask for smaller companies.

But let's really be clear here: just because your company could do it doesn't mean others can or should.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#299

Post by caskstrength »

bambax wrote: post #229
caskstrength wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is the evilest of evils. It must be fought with great determination if we are concerned with freedom. Continuing using Apple products while periodically expressing your frustration on Reddit/HN is not a good way to "fight" Apple. Consider using PC with Linux or something.

Yes, hence "mistake". (Also I only buy products second hand.)

> Also I only buy products second hand

I would assume that popularity of second had Apple products increases their resale value and indirectly benefits Apple since people consider their products to be a better investment and buy more of them.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#300

Post by mmcnl »

scarface_74 wrote: post #285
mmcnl wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think so, for the end user it doesn't matter a lot (though increased competition will be of benefit for the end user obviously). But what matters is that Apple can't be a gatekeeper for PWAs and so they can't charge their 30% App Store tax. So it matters a lot for developers. That's why it's a threat to the App Store model.

You still didn’t answer the question - if it means so much for developers, why not use PWAs on Android today?

Because PWAs are not capable enough. But as I repeatedly said and will repeat again: it's not about today. What's true today doesn't need to be true in 5 or 10 years.
Post reply on HN