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From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

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Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#191

Part your experience depends on your organization, as well as your disposition and predilections. My foray into management absolutely fucking sucked. I was a shock absorber and clutch plate between team members and board/executives/senior leadership. On bad days I was the bearer of bad news or executioner. It was strictly a top-down affair; despite endless bloviating about open doors, open minds, and being empowered…

During my first year into Engineering Management I would have subscribed nearly 100% of what you said.

Then I began getting good at this job. I learned to delegate and was rewarded with empowered direct reports. I earned the trust of my boss and got more autonomy. I could implement some ideas of mine and see the benefits.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix is indeed an outlier and has always paid higher than the rest of the market since it's such a shitty toxic place to work and in a terrible location to boot. Even they aren't hiring someone looking at L5 at one of the other big companies at 600k. They'll be much higher than the other companies though.

/All/ the current and former Netflix engineers I've talked to talked glowingly about working Netflix. I'm supposing there's a lot of self-selection. And they've recently started hiring remote.

[deleted]

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#193
EDIT: re-read and saw that you have to find the weakest link every 6 months. That is awful.

As a manager of several years now, you missed one of the absolutely worst parts: "performance management" a.k.a. when one of your reports is repeatedly/consistently unable or unwilling to meet expectations and you have to put them on a Performance Improvement Plan.

Not only are PIPs a slog for you, they're absolutely torturous for your report. If you have a shred of empathy, it's tough. If you have a lot, it's agonizing. Add H1B status to that mix and you're possibly the person responsible for sending this person out of the country.

I had two years across two jobs where I inherited teams where many PIPs were called for. It led to me quitting the second job outright and nearly a year of sabbatical recovering.

Harming others is not why I became a manager—really the opposite.

On a good day, I get to help people grow and be a part of their victories. On a bad day, I'm at least indirectly responsible for their suffering and feeling miserable about it for at least days.

It can be a tough gig.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#194
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

This guy gets it.

Senior management often seems like a popularity contest.

The ability to get along with others often seems to be more important than actually being a good manager, being aligned with the business, and delivering value.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#195

> Your words have weight. If you, an IC, say "guys, we really should write tests", everybody goes "oh, crazy old Vladimir, all grumpy again, haha, where do you see tests fit here?". If you, an EM, casually say "guys, we really should write tests", you might be surprised to find the tests unexpectedly growing in different places. Pleasant. Many years ago, I was standing in my then-boss’s office while he got off the ph…

As the senior IC on my team it’s my manager that asks me to bring things up with the team since they actually listen to me. Managers just get ignored unless they actually threaten you with consequences and you have to use that sparingly.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#196
post #182
post #141

A bad EM can do so much more damage than a bad IC. I don't think that's talked about enough. In my now very long career I've had 1 great manager, a few good/decent ones, and a lot of lousy ones. The lousy ones just make the job so much harder and sometimes outright miserable. A bad EM coupled with junior ICs can be particularly bad combo. At least as I got older I came to realize I can work with bad managers and help…

How would you define that one great manager? What personality traits, behavior, skills made that person stand out? I'm curious as I'm getting more managerial responsibilities.

The key is to remember your job as a manager is to unblock your ICs and make sure they are working on stuff that matches their skills. It is not to: - Overrule them on technical decisions - Create extra processes to follow because you are insecure

Being a good manager is all about doing the minimum. That’s why you see comments earlier in this thread about leaving your team for a few weeks.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#197
post #58

The biggest pain is the people. You'd be surprised how childish grown ups can be. FFS just be adults and get along. 80% of my stress as a manager is basically solving playground squabbles between people old enough and experienced enough to know better. Then of course the other 20% of the stress are your reports actively trying to undermine you, or publicly question your purpose/existence, or cut you out of decision m…

> Then of course the other 20% of the stress are your reports actively trying to undermine you, or publicly question your purpose/existence, or cut you out of decision making processes, going behind your back and contradicting previous agreements, trying to short-circuit or subvert agreed processes etc etc for above childish reasons. Frankly, this makes it look like you are indeed a problem that deserves to be questi…

My thought as well. My manager loves it when I cut him out of the decision making process. It means less work for him and the whole point of having senior ICs is to let them take on those responsibilities.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#198
It seems OPs opinion is heavily influenced by their personal experience, and it doesn't generalize well. In fact I have the complete opposite opinion on several points

> Your words have weight. If you, an IC, say "guys, we really should write tests", everybody goes "oh, crazy old Vladimir, all grumpy again, haha, where do you see tests fit here?". If you, an EM, casually say "guys, we really should write tests", you might be surprised to find the tests unexpectedly growing in different places.

I can't generalize, but in my company engineers trust Staff engineers way more than managers. Everyone has informal authority, and from my experience engineers tend to respect other engineers more. As a manager you can ask people to do things, but there is no guarantee they'll do it. And if you need to resort to your formal authority to resolve something, things probably went wrong somewhere.

> Frankly, after 4–5 years of working in a particular tech area, you can solve the vast majority of practical problems well enough.

If this is the case, then you are certainly not pushing yourself hard enough. Maybe it's company specific, but right now in my team there is a neverending list of ever increasingly bigger and more complex problems. The idea that you can master everything in 5 years sounds extremely naive to me.

> Life of an engineer is relatively relaxed. If you don't have anything urgent, you can go lay on the grass for half a day

Please OP tell me where you work. I'd like to lay in the grass half a day, rather than being constantly pulled into 10 different directions and having to push back on new requests.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#199
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A manager does build things! It’s just that their tools are engineers :)

In a large tech company not really. The Product Manager or Staff engineers build things using other engineers. The Engineering Manager uses their blood and sweat to lubricate the corporate cogs to make that process a bit more efficient.

It really depends on the company. Google and Meta are horrible places to be an EM/ED (apart from the cash obviously)
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