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From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

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Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only senior (L5) engineer making 600k TC is one that has been at senior for several years and stock appreciation brought their RSU value way up. The high end for L5 is like half that.

Netflix would disagree.

Netflix is indeed an outlier and has always paid higher than the rest of the market since it's such a shitty toxic place to work and in a terrible location to boot.

Even they aren't hiring someone looking at L5 at one of the other big companies at 600k. They'll be much higher than the other companies though.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#122
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

> The ladder isn’t really taller. In my company, I think it's roughly 2-3% at L7 or more. It takes really special skills to reach that level, not just years of experience. I don't know how it compares to EM though, but it's a tall ladder! > those of us happy to go back to IC roles have no trouble finding work My concern as an IC is ageism. I wish that I can say that when I'm 50+. I feel EMs are a little more immune t…

I think digging into the roots of SWE's not being respected is worth discussing.

Are doctors, lawyers, or surgeons viewed the same way? I don't know those industries well enough to say. Some domains of software are very, very deep and require many years of study and practice.

It feels like the root of SWEs not being fully respected simply comes back to the fact that they aren't considered as part of the org as much as management is.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ladder isn’t really taller. In my company, I think it's roughly 2-3% at L7 or more. It takes really special skills to reach that level, not just years of experience. I don't know how it compares to EM though, but it's a tall ladder! > those of us happy to go back to IC roles have no trouble finding work My concern as an IC is ageism. I wish that I can say that when I'm 50+. I feel EMs are a little more immune t…

SWEs are generally speaking less respected (and compensated!) in Europe, but ageism is AFAICT much less prevalent. If I was in the US, it would be time for me to start worrying about it.

In my early 40s in the US, I try to stay close to deep tech companies that have profoundly hard problems. (The kind of stuff that eats juniors alive unless they have guidance.)

Even there, you kinda feel the org's Eye of Sauron looking at you wondering why you haven't ascended into the clergy of management sometimes.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#124
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

A couple of other points that struck me as different from my experience, and maybe more a function of where this person is working rather than some fundamental difference between the roles: The idea that your word is taken more seriously as an EM rather than an IC when it comes to (for example) needing to test more. I have to admit that this may have been one of the reasons I felt the need to switch to a management r…

What you’re saying is true but being able to talk and convince people gets you wayyy further than any other method.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#125
Part your experience depends on your organization, as well as your disposition and predilections. My foray into management absolutely fucking sucked.

I was a shock absorber and clutch plate between team members and board/executives/senior leadership. On bad days I was the bearer of bad news or executioner. It was strictly a top-down affair; despite endless bloviating about open doors, open minds, and being empowered to lead and make changes, I was expected to do what they told me, keep myself and my team in line, and if I had any ideas they’d “bring it up in their next leadership meeting” (spoiler: they won’t, or if they do, it will be disregarded). Despite given a mandate, I had very little authority.

You also have to deal with idiosyncrasies with other managers. Lazy ones you have to pick up the slack for lest you become blocked. Bad ones who poison their team and create mistrust that spreads to others. Overeager ones that somehow seem to get their way or maybe have an easier department but who nonetheless get the attention of senior leadership where unfair expectations are placed on you.

The day-to-day was miserable. I’m highly technical and I like to get my hands dirty, being a manager vaporized a significant portion of why I enjoyed working at a tech company and mostly left me with the reasons I don’t. Being a Jira or spreadsheet jockey, filling out PIPs, IDPs, KPIs, budget proposals, expense reports, screening interviewees, managing petty squabbles between people, juggling PTO calendars, scrum bullshit, and endless fucking meetings. I’ve never been so busy doing what felt like so little. Sometimes it felt like I was babysitting people that, as a peer, I enjoyed working with.

I was also utterly repulsed by HR. I don’t know if HR has made a bad turn lately, was always like this, or my experience was just organizational, but these people are Stasi-like agents that seem to want you to spy on every little detail and use it against you and the employee. Yet when I actually needed them, e.g. conflict resolution, they were completely incompetent and insensitive, enraging employees rather than empowering them. They always sided with senior leadership, even when that person violated our own handbook.

Unlike the author, there wasn’t really anywhere else to go. Senior leadership doesn’t have a lot of openings. At best, I just get shifted around to other teams and maybe get dropped in one less fucked.

I enjoyed mentoring a lot, but sometimes reports looked to me like I’m a parent or a therapist and it was too much (and HR useless). I enjoyed strategy and design, but senior leadership was frustrating and frequently didn’t listen or involve me at all. I enjoyed delegating and giving reports opportunity for growth, allowing me to stress about the minute details less, but now my ass was on the line for the entire team which is waaaay more stress than just doing the work.

I generally chalk it up to me being a poor fit for the role in a dysfunctional company, but talking to other managers, it seemed my experience was not uncommon.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#126
I enjoyed the post and appreciate the author sharing their perspective. It's one of many valuable datapoints for anyone considering such a transition.

I agree with a lot, but like others - disagree with some.

My background: I've worked in tech for ~14 in all kinds of roles - from pure junior IC, through a "team lead" (something between an expert IC, a tech lead, and a manager), "tech lead," company's "technical architect" (highest level tech lead, peer to the technical director, but without any direct reports), and something akin to a tech director. Now I'm back to IC. Companies from small gamedev ones (80 people total, 15 engineers), medium gamedev (30 engineers and coding technical artists), huge gamedev (Ubisoft where you can have 100+ engineers and 1500 people total on a project), and for the last 7y "big tech".

The idea I would like to push back the most is that "your words have more weight". I have never had trouble getting my opinions heard, even if I didn't push them. Being the expert IC and "problem solver" sometimes I'd have even CEO asking me directly for advice and how to solve some issues (both technical and non-technical!). Not always following them, but I didn't expect that. Having an official title, in theory, you can use some "authority" to formally push those ideas. But... in practice, it does not work better. People will still go directly to the most technical experts. And if you abuse the position/authority/title (I hope I never did that, but that's not for me to judge...), it can cause resentment, pushback, and more disagreements. You will also hear less of gossip and honest feedback, to some engineers you becomes "not one of us anymore".

It can also destroy friendships. I had a great friend (meeting socially with our wives once a week, sharing interests) who was my peer and was then promoted to my lead. I still really liked them and wanted to stay friends. We always had technical disagreements (which were fine for peer ICs). Later, some of those technical disagreements and my bringing up issues publicly caused him to get bitter with me (as the upper management saw those and took my side on some occasions), and eventually stopped the friendship completely; after I left the company, they started ghosting me. :(

Similarly, on a few occasions, I agreed to lead/manage formally (in one case, it came from me - in other cases, I was asked to). I agreed because I thought, "Things are f-d up; I can solve them by being closer to the upper leadership and helping the team succeed." Man, I was so naive. :( I didn't have any more authority or power with the higher-ups, and there were more disagreements. They expected me to enforce policies I disagreed with. As you can imagine, this didn't last long, and I always ended up leaving the team/company and being super burnt out.

So now I'm happy to be a staff-level IC, an expert, and a "hacker," playing with problems hands-on and building my expertise further. The field grows so quickly that there is always something exciting and new to learn and do. I would happily be a tech lead of some project close to me (luckily, at Google and similar, it's flexible, per-project, and not formal), but I probably do not want to manage again. Maybe it will change, depends.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#128
post #84
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

I also found it weird that the author thought being an EM is a good path to being an entrepreneur. Going from zero to one has very little to do with engineering management. Being able to hack out code quickly and being comfortable talking to potential customers (preferably not in that order) are the most important things and not at all related to being an EM. It's no guarantee that you'll get to hire anyone to manage…

> I also found it weird that the author thought being an EM is a good path to being an entrepreneur.

This was the pitch from my manager that led to me moving into an EM role. He knew I was interested in doing a startup in the future, but I didn't have experience with people management.

I don't think it's necessarily a great path to entrepreneurship, but if you are solid on the engineering side it's a good skillset to develop.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#129
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither have I but it is an interesting point to consider - to what extent is the EMs thinking biased by their previous experience of the team as an engineer.

Doesn't this seem like a useful bias to have?

The word bias has a negative connotation so perhaps you mean something else.

Given two EMs, one that came organically from a team and another that came "from the outside" and spent a few months working with a team - what advantages and disadvantages would the first EM have over the second?

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#130
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would either of you mind expanding on this? What kind of roles have you held?

I have worked on security, databases, some distributed systems, a couple of video games, AR/VR and some ML systems, mostly connected to database and data pipelines. Knowing what the kernel is likely doing underneath has been useful in all those domains. More than that, being able to set up a production environment by yourself is hugely useful. If you know the internals, the complexity of a lot of middleware kind of c…

Are there any books etc that you could recommend on Linux internals. I am mostly write c# code, and I didn't do computer science, I mostly self taught. I recently set myself the task of learning some c as I was finding that I was hitting a brick wall when it came to trying to learn more lower level concepts.

I want to work my way through computer systems a programmers perspective :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Computer-Systems-Programmers-Perspe...

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