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From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

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Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#161

Post by LtWorf »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #137
rcbdev wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed the most effective managers I've worked with came from calm low-stress countries with similar work cultures - maybe the key to solving crunch and burnout is to create a regulatory environment where a worker's entire livelihood (health, rent, loan payments towards public universities etc.) is not solely dependent on keeping their job?

"But of people aren't mortally afraid, they won't work hard enough!" - American capitalism I once had a manager (not my direct manager) tell me "maybe some fear is good?" No, it's not. Fear is useful for outrunning predators, but it is a useless emotion for programming computers. Unfortunately that particular phrase had come to that manager from the CEO, so, yeah. That company is a mess of short termism and hasty irr…

Our CEO flew from USA to tell us that if we land that defence contract we'll be set. Of course the USA might ask the company to get rid of all the foreign workers (100% of the developers).

So he came to tell us to not worry, for now the company has money problems but soon™ the company will be doing fine and we'll all be fired!

How emotionally incompetent do you have to be to think this is good news?

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#162

Post by margorczynski »

t8sr wrote: post #78
dchftcs wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. This sounds like an anecdote tainted with confirmation and survivorship bias. Most SWEs get stuck at senior (especially at Google), get…

The expectation that everyone should reach these career levels is easily dispelled by basic math. L6 and EM can by definition exist at a ratio of, at best, 1:6 to the people at more junior levels. Most engineers might be “stuck” at L5, but most potential EMs are stuck before they even become EMs, due to the same math. But of the people at L6 on either ladder, who are ready to work at the next level, opportunities are…

> L6 and EM can by definition exist at a ratio of, at best, 1:6 to the people at more junior levels

And for the respective IC of that level the ratio is even worse as in many companies they help out with many projects consisting of 5-10 people. In short there are many more manager positions at a respective level than IC ones.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#163

Post by natsucks »

lll-o-lll wrote: post #34

I’m a problem solver and big picture thinker. I like working out the solution and helping solve the obstacles. The role that has always fit the best is “architect”, but it seems to be going away as a title. No matter, the need for the work remains. But I’ve done a few of the other roles over the years. Team Lead/manager, Scrum Master, Product Manager (without the title). Here’s my take. A good manager requires a very…

this. this right here.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#164

Post by waynesonfire »

brycewray wrote: post #61

> Your words have weight. If you, an IC, say "guys, we really should write tests", everybody goes "oh, crazy old Vladimir, all grumpy again, haha, where do you see tests fit here?". If you, an EM, casually say "guys, we really should write tests", you might be surprised to find the tests unexpectedly growing in different places. Pleasant. Many years ago, I was standing in my then-boss’s office while he got off the ph…

> guys, we really should write tests

Oh sure thing, assign another task to an understaffed inadequetly skilled team with a roadmap due yesterday.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#165

Post by margorczynski »

robertlagrant wrote: post #136
asQuirreL wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of other points that struck me as different from my experience, and maybe more a function of where this person is working rather than some fundamental difference between the roles: The idea that your word is taken more seriously as an EM rather than an IC when it comes to (for example) needing to test more. I have to admit that this may have been one of the reasons I felt the need to switch to a management r…

> The fact that you have to stack rank and pick an under-performer every half is just broken I didn't realise places still did this. Even Microsoft stopped, and I think acknowledged that it was crippling to them in the 2000s as talent rushed to less silly companies.

Isn't this the standard in Amazon? But I guess the cutthroat approach is part of their corporate DNA.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#166

Post by dilyevsky »

t8sr wrote: post #158
dilyevsky wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of your points are requirements for staff not “beyond staff”

I don’t think so - I’ve been in promotion committees to L7 and I feel fairly confident those are examples of L7 impact. Not by themselves sufficient maybe, but they’re the kind of stuff L7 SWEs do with their time. I suppose I have heard that the L6 bar has lowered somewhat from ~2015, mostly in response to people complaining about being stuck at L5. But I wouldn’t have any first hand experience with that, other than…

Well at least they should be and most companies other than faang don't have enough scale to warrant staff vs sr staff (L7) breakdown so next level is principal with company-wide impact.

> I suppose I have heard that the L6 bar has lowered somewhat from ~2015

Yes title inflation is real. A lot of "Staffs" today would barely make it Senior 10-15 years ago. IMO this is a result of ZIRP so we might see reversal of that trend soon...

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#167

Post by elevatedastalt »

askonomm wrote: post #159
elevatedastalt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's nice to be "Senior engineer" when you are 28. Not when you are 38 and being lorded over and over-ridden by "Staff Engineers" with half your experience.

Not everybody wants to get promoted to their level of incompetence. Some of us want to stay at a level that we are good at, and not endlessly climb a ladder.

That's true but it also implies that you are led / bossed over by people are typically incompetent.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#168

Post by jSully24 »

t8sr wrote: post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

> The idea that 5 years of experience is enough to solve most problems is crazy to me. 18 years in the industry, and I’m still very aware of things I don’t know and need to get better at. I know amazing engineers with 40 years of experience who are still learning and getting better.

Recently retired engineering manager here. Manager I all the way to VP of Engineering at several successful startups and a few big companies.

I was continually surprised that fresh and new challenges continually appeared, until I got wise enough to know there will always be something you not run into before.

Be wary of anyone who think’s they’ve seen it all.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#169

Post by timr »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #122
yodsanklai wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ladder isn’t really taller. In my company, I think it's roughly 2-3% at L7 or more. It takes really special skills to reach that level, not just years of experience. I don't know how it compares to EM though, but it's a tall ladder! > those of us happy to go back to IC roles have no trouble finding work My concern as an IC is ageism. I wish that I can say that when I'm 50+. I feel EMs are a little more immune t…

I think digging into the roots of SWE's not being respected is worth discussing. Are doctors, lawyers, or surgeons viewed the same way? I don't know those industries well enough to say. Some domains of software are very, very deep and require many years of study and practice. It feels like the root of SWEs not being fully respected simply comes back to the fact that they aren't considered as part of the org as much a…

> I think digging into the roots of SWE's not being respected is worth discussing. Are doctors, lawyers, or surgeons viewed the same way?

Those are three very different things with different growth paths. But as someone who went from engineer to entrepreneur and is now on the product side, I can say that software people, almost as a rule, focus on stuff that doesn't matter for promotion. It's really frustrating sometimes.

Modulo pathological things like corporate politics, companies care about profit and loss. Grow the business, make the money roll in, and your chances of advancement approach unity. But far too many software people devote their time to "honing their tools", when, to the company, the entire tools budget is just a cost center. Identifying as a "tool person" at all just means that you're climbing a greasy pole. This is true even in "pure" software companies -- the difference between working on a business-critical initiative and, say, code-review tooling, can be everything to your career path.

Just to emphasize this point, consider the growth paths for the other careers you mentioned. Lawyers get paid well overall, but making partner depends on bringing in business. Surgeons and doctors are a bit more complex due to licensing scarcity, but if you know anyone in private practice, it's the same gig: get clients, grow the business. Meet the minimum threshold for technical competency, and nobody really cares if you're the best surgeon in the state, so long as you're bringing in patients.

The world revolves around money. Software is relevant only to the extent that it makes money.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#170

Post by dz08dl »

thoughtspile wrote: post #99
dz08dl wrote: post #92

My background is the opposite; I'm a mediocre software engineer but have quite good people skills. I'm experienced enough to know what takes time and which parts of the system are more critical than others. I have a few senior engineers whom I really listen to carefully and to whom I give a lot of trust and empowerment. I don't make design decisions, they do and I give input. I take responsibility when we fail (and l…

I think that's the optimal EM career path TBH. It's a shame many companies don't have an official middle-to- manager switch mechanism.

I like to think I'm a good fit, but of course, I need to improve my skills, like anyone else. At the end of the day, we are working with people, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution. Sometimes the most skillful engineer is the best fit for the EM position. However, I truly believe that to get the best output, you want team members to commit as a group and to feel that it's rewarding to achieve goals and have personal development. Unfortunately, not everyone has the luxury of a long-term perspective.
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