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From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

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Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#31

Post by t8sr »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #20
t8sr wrote: post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

Promotions on the engineering ladder " when ready without needing to wait for the star to align " is because very often those promotions only entail better title and pay. Periodic promotions keep people happy. But any promotions that entail a real step up in responsibility requires team/company growth for those positions to open up.

There are many different ways to grow beyond staff engineer:

- Become an expert in something hard. Fix bugs nobody else can. This requires sticking around for longer than most people, maybe 10 years or more.

- Have impact across the industry. Maintain a kernel subsystem, run a C++ subcommittee, etc.

- Be a TL for multiple teams, because you have experience and a plan the other TLs can get behind.

- Wear multiple hats, e.g. be a solid manager who is also a really good engineer. Be great at, e.g. Audio and ML, or some other rare combo.

These archetypes are starting to get documented by some companies as part of their careers ladders, even. As a SWE, you have many options to create scope. As an EM, you really only have one.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#32

Post by ssss11 »

Prcmaker wrote: post #2

I've watched a colleague go from a good engineer, to a great engineering manager, to an awful project manager. I see him hating what his career has become and I feel terrible for him.

That’s a shame, he can always try changing it up again.

I’m the opposite - engineer to manager, didn’t like people management side of it, changed to project management and loving it.

I do miss technical work though.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#33

Post by thoughtspile »

shubhamjain wrote: post #11

> Suffering from front-end fatigue? Can't keep up with the newest shiniest frameworks and tools? Management's got you covered! The "hot new" agile / kanban / scrum methodologies are 20–30 years old. The basic meeting types (demos, dailies, 1-on-1s) have been developing for centuries. > Frankly, after 4–5 years of working in a particular tech area, you can solve the vast majority of practical problems well enough. If…

Not saying management is harder than engineering, at all. It's just another nice big area to learn something new.

Big companies tend to be quite prescriptive about role boundaries, so if you're an FE engineer, you can learn design and provide input as much as you want, but you won't likely get to design a new screen from scratch instead of your regular designer.

I mean, over the last few years as an IC I fiddled with CI setups and automated QA, wrote some CLI codegens, but after some time you really notice you start inventing problems to have some fun.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#34

Post by lll-o-lll »

I’m a problem solver and big picture thinker. I like working out the solution and helping solve the obstacles. The role that has always fit the best is “architect”, but it seems to be going away as a title. No matter, the need for the work remains.

But I’ve done a few of the other roles over the years. Team Lead/manager, Scrum Master, Product Manager (without the title). Here’s my take. A good manager requires a very different skill set to an engineer. The primary skill is to have extremely low neuroticism. The ability to make good decisions and present a calm and rational exterior under prolonged stress. 90% of lower level managers do not possess these attributes, and under stress, damage the team and company. If you want to be a manager, honestly assess how you respond to stress (particularly prolonged). Do you lash out at those around you? Hide or freeze up, unable to make a decision? Blame others and seek to protect yourself or reputation? These things, as boring as they sound, are the real differences between effective managers and everyone else.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#35

Post by thoughtspile »

grilledcheez wrote: post #9

I’m a senior dev currently interviewing for a team lead position at a startup. While I consider myself highly technical, the things that frustrate me the most day-to-day are teamwork related. Lack of trust. Teammates who don’t want to talk to each other. Other seniors getting away with subpar work. Lack of clear team purpose and product vision. Lack of buy in on common engineering practices. As a people manager these…

Man, people have a hard time talking to each other indeed. I might have to resort to some silly kindergarten games to make that happen

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#36

Post by yodsanklai »

t8sr wrote: post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

> The ladder isn’t really taller.

In my company, I think it's roughly 2-3% at L7 or more. It takes really special skills to reach that level, not just years of experience. I don't know how it compares to EM though, but it's a tall ladder!

> those of us happy to go back to IC roles have no trouble finding work

My concern as an IC is ageism. I wish that I can say that when I'm 50+. I feel EMs are a little more immune to that (perhaps more so in Europe where SWEs aren't very well respected).

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#37

Post by rcbdev »

lll-o-lll wrote: post #34

I’m a problem solver and big picture thinker. I like working out the solution and helping solve the obstacles. The role that has always fit the best is “architect”, but it seems to be going away as a title. No matter, the need for the work remains. But I’ve done a few of the other roles over the years. Team Lead/manager, Scrum Master, Product Manager (without the title). Here’s my take. A good manager requires a very…

I've noticed the most effective managers I've worked with came from calm low-stress countries with similar work cultures - maybe the key to solving crunch and burnout is to create a regulatory environment where a worker's entire livelihood (health, rent, loan payments towards public universities etc.) is not solely dependent on keeping their job?

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#38

Post by thoughtspile »

t8sr wrote: post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

Thanks for the feedback! I must say I've never worked in real big tech, and I've never worked with an IC beyond staff level. I'd imagine promotions to principal / fellow are quite rare as well? Besides, most "normal" companies don't have these grades, at all.

By transferable, I mean skills that are useful outside of our big tech bubble. You might not want to go out as money is very nice, but still good to know you can do something beside computer beep bop.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#39

Post by asQuirreL »

t8sr wrote: post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

A couple of other points that struck me as different from my experience, and maybe more a function of where this person is working rather than some fundamental difference between the roles:

The idea that your word is taken more seriously as an EM rather than an IC when it comes to (for example) needing to test more.

I have to admit that this may have been one of the reasons I felt the need to switch to a management role myself (I was an IC that had recently been promoted to a staff level role and subconsciously I felt like I lacked credibility and hiding behind a title would help me get some). In practice that turned out not to be true -- I didn't need to do that at the time, and now as an IC in a different company, my thoughts and feedback are taken seriously at an organisational level and by my peers.

The fact that you have to stack rank and pick an under-performer every half is just broken. I know it's a sad reality of performance management in a lot of places but it's not a universal truth that you will have to do that as a manager. Statistically, you can't avoid having difficult conversations about real performance problems, but there are companies where managers don't have to have the "everyone else on the team did better than you this half" conversation or the "I had to pick so this half you got the short straw" conversation.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#40

Post by t8sr »

yodsanklai wrote: post #36
t8sr wrote: post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

> The ladder isn’t really taller. In my company, I think it's roughly 2-3% at L7 or more. It takes really special skills to reach that level, not just years of experience. I don't know how it compares to EM though, but it's a tall ladder! > those of us happy to go back to IC roles have no trouble finding work My concern as an IC is ageism. I wish that I can say that when I'm 50+. I feel EMs are a little more immune t…

There were slightly more L7 EMs than L7 SWEs every time I looked, but there's nuance to that. If the company decides it needs an L7 EM and nobody is available to promote, they'll hire externally. Your chances of being promoted into that role are reduced by the proportion of L7 EMs who were external hires. The other nuance is that those numbers don't correct for overall tenure, but I don't know how that would change things. Finally, getting to L7 EM is maybe 30% in your control and 70% circumstances, but that ratio is IMO inverted for ICs.

So even though there are more L7 EMs than SWEs, you might still have an easier time getting to L7 SWE, if you're ready to be an L7 SWE.

Your point about ageism is well-taken. I'm not yet old enough to really feel it, but I have heard it's rough.

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