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From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

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11–20 of 208 posts

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#11
> Suffering from front-end fatigue? Can't keep up with the newest shiniest frameworks and tools? Management's got you covered! The "hot new" agile / kanban / scrum methodologies are 20–30 years old. The basic meeting types (demos, dailies, 1-on-1s) have been developing for centuries.

> Frankly, after 4–5 years of working in a particular tech area, you can solve the vast majority of practical problems well enough. If you want some work challenge, you can:

I hate takes like these. "Good technical skills are dime a dozen, but management? that's the hard shit."

There's absolutely no lack of meaningful skills you can expand into if you're plateauing as an engineer. If you're a front-end engineer, go learn some design and product thinking, that'll help you give better input to other teams. Learn some scripting, and automate a bunch of shit. Learn some SQL and learn to query data on your own, instead of relying on others.

The best manager I had had a wide range of technical skills, so was able to make smart decisions since he had a very holistic picture of the codebase. Technical management shouldn't be about following methodologies, doing 1:1s, and being a middleman, it should be about making good practical decisions.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#12

I’m a senior dev currently interviewing for a team lead position at a startup. While I consider myself highly technical, the things that frustrate me the most day-to-day are teamwork related. Lack of trust. Teammates who don’t want to talk to each other. Other seniors getting away with subpar work. Lack of clear team purpose and product vision. Lack of buy in on common engineering practices. As a people manager these…

how do you think they will get more into your influence of work?

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#13
post #4

And here I am, 12 years into my career as a software engineer, never, ever, wanting to be a manager. I just want to build things, I don't want to manage them. I see what it is like to be a manager as I work closely with them, and I just don't find it appealing at all. As a senior engineer, my words also often matter, but I don't have the huge amount of responsibility that comes with being a manager, which is nice. I…

I don't think the good takeaway is to "never be a manager", more of don't be a corpo manager of stuff that's someone else's vision. It's not the difficulty of the learning or necessarily the people but the circumstances that surround it. I think having management perspective is excellent to understand the contexts behind what is being built and why things are seemingly inefficient and broken. Gives more insight into…

In my opinion you don't have to be a manager to know all these things. In fact, every good senior engineer should be aware of what the leadership is trying to accomplish anyway, as we're not just code monkeys, but rather problem solvers. If this isn't actively communicated to you by managers themselves (it often isn't), then you should proactively ask questions yourself, as like you said, it would give more insight into solutions.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#14
The biggest pain is the people. You'd be surprised how childish grown ups can be. FFS just be adults and get along. 80% of my stress as a manager is basically solving playground squabbles between people old enough and experienced enough to know better.

Then of course the other 20% of the stress are your reports actively trying to undermine you, or publicly question your purpose/existence, or cut you out of decision making processes, going behind your back and contradicting previous agreements, trying to short-circuit or subvert agreed processes etc etc for above childish reasons.

Turns out that a lot of "professionals" are not professional at all and are actually pretty petty, spiteful, grudge-holding argumentative children who go into a strop (or as the article puts it "go lay on the grass thinking about their project") for a day or 5 if they don't get their way.

The rest of being a manager is a breeze though! 10/10 would buy again etc :)

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#15
post #3

Are there companies that would hire you as an engineer for a team lead position without much prior experience? Or is the only way to transition within the same company?

The smaller the company the greater the chance of that IMO. I had to do it within my company and it was all a matter of luck, timing the right manager etc. Today it wouldn't happen again.

I think it's also not easy to do in a static situation where people have a fixed image of you and your talents in their minds. So basically I think you need to move around - if it's not happening for you in one place you need to find another.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#16
I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says:

- The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was lucky to be in a growth area.)

- The skills feel transferrable, but every pure EM I know who got laid off is still looking for work and ready to give up. Meanwhile, those of us happy to go back to IC roles have no trouble finding work. Corporate management cultures are actually incredibly variable across companies and not directly transferable. The single most transferable skill I know in this industry is Linux internals.

- The idea that 5 years of experience is enough to solve most problems is crazy to me. 18 years in the industry, and I’m still very aware of things I don’t know and need to get better at. I know amazing engineers with 40 years of experience who are still learning and getting better.

IMO the best thing about being a manager is that you get to spend a lot of your time thinking about the future, and you are more likely to be “in the room where it happens,” talking to and hearing from C-levels. It’s also the worst thing, because you see how the sausage gets made.

I do agree with the things the author dislikes, but they get better. As a new manager, the author possibly hasn’t yet run into the thing you come to hate the most: senior management in many companies is basically a high school clique. Behavioral problems that would get normal people fired are sometimes tolerated in VP, C-levels, even directors sometimes, and working in such environments is trying.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior engineer is fairly low. At some point you may get tired of stagnating salary and being told what to do all the time. They are higher technical positions that have no or very little management responsibilities (up to senior principal engineer, architect, etc). It depends also on the company and how much they value you. Best I have seen is engineer with PhD and decades of experience be the research/architecture…

Stagnating salary? Every job change comes with around 20-30% raise usually, so I would not call it stagnant. Managers are also being told what to do, by those above them. Since I do not work for FAANG companies, but rather small-to-medium (regular?) tech companies, they mostly never have principal/architect roles. My current role, in most cases, is actually the highest IC role there is.

If you remain 'senior software engineer' your salary will be constrained by the market range for that position.

When you get to the top of the range your salary will only increase in line with inflation/market forces whatever you do. It's not possible to get 20-30% more every time you change job unless you've stayed a long time in your current job and they were taking advantage of you (in which case those 20-30% represent what you were actually losing).

As for titles, obviously what I meant relates to what the actual role entails. 'Senior software engineer' is usually not very senior, in my experience this often means a dev who can be left alone to deliver the specific feature they were tasked to code. As for "highest IC role there is" again, if the job description is very senior you can also negotiate commensurate title and pay.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#18

I’m a senior dev currently interviewing for a team lead position at a startup. While I consider myself highly technical, the things that frustrate me the most day-to-day are teamwork related. Lack of trust. Teammates who don’t want to talk to each other. Other seniors getting away with subpar work. Lack of clear team purpose and product vision. Lack of buy in on common engineering practices. As a people manager these…

I felt this - a lot of the problems I've experienced with teams before could have been solved by the management.

In practise now I find that I am a Team Lead and yet I have far less ability to influence things than I thought. There are a host of people including my boss who want to run everything and expect me to be a rubber stamp.

In fact I get into shit more because I have to speak up for people in the team who are (unfortunately) rightly afraid to. Like "for a story to be ready we need the API defined" - how can QA work in parallel on automated tests when they don't know what to test? Scrum masters, POs, my manager, architects......they just talk whichever shit suits them today as if it was all self evident truth and tomorrow they're moaning about why the tests are late.

Basically you get into the politics of who is to blame for the state of affairs and the people who chose those directions and strategies are well connected and good at shifting blame.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#19
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

Another point: there many more senior+staff engineer roles than EM roles. Once you become an EM, it's much harder to make a switch, because:

a) the roles are fewer

b) companies are wary of bringing in an EM for a team (prefer to promote within the ranks, in my experience).

c) switching from EM to a senior engineer role is hard both because it feels like a downgrade and because I see companies not that willing to offer it.

Of course, if the company is on the right course, you've hit a jackpot and can become an important leader few years down the line, but I know many EMs who are trapped in a bad org because of this. I believe engineers transitioning to a management role should keep these things in mind. I prefer making less bucks and keep my peace of mind about moving somewhere else.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#20
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

Promotions on the engineering ladder "when ready without needing to wait for the star to align" is because very often those promotions only entail better title and pay. Periodic promotions keep people happy.

But any promotions that entail a real step up in responsibility requires team/company growth for those positions to open up.

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