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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think an app store isn't something people want, rather than something they put up with? Because it seems to be that way on MacOS. On Mac, the App Store is absolutely useless and exclusively something people do not want. It does not distribute the software users want, it charges them extra fees, and limits the type of app you distribute. Judging by every single professional Mac user I've met, circumventin…

> If the post-App Store world is so great, people will keep living in it even when alternative stores exist Bear in mind I'm replying to someone who's saying app stores aren't necessary in general: > Well shit, what user needs an app store to begin with

In a reductive sense, they're right. Computers existed for upwards of three decades without App Stores, and we distributed software just fine without 'em.

Apple could sign software the same way they do on Mac and effectively turn the App Store into an IPA-downloading PWA.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being affordable is an advantage, unless you want to put on the ritz with a premium locked iPhone. For example Sony Xperia XZ2 Compact is a nice affordable smartphone.

If you can afford the iPhone, how does it compare feature-wise?

https://m.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9082&idPhone2=1...

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#803
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you like about it? Size?

Size, camera, performance, battery life. I say this as a lifelong Android user......there's nothing that actually competes with iPhone 13 mini.

Xperia XZ2 Compact is almost the same size, has better camera (19MP vs 12MP), the same 4GB RAM + SD card which iPhone doesn't have: https://m.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9082&idPhone2=1...

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#804

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

dma here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...

Apple cannot simply invoke DMA (50) as a free pass. For its arguments to align with the intent of the legislation, here's a roadmap of what they need to do to justify their security-based restrictions on iOS:

Apple must be transparent about the exact security issues posed by alternative browser engines with concrete instances (not merely speculative risks). They need to prove that these are unique to iOS, given the successful use of unrestricted browser engines on macOS (and every other OS).

Before opting for the extreme step of removing functionality, Apple needs to offer documentation of all the methods for managing and mitigating specific threats that were considered and subsequently ruled out as infeasible (sandboxing, enhanced APIs, etc.). This emphasizes that their actions are indeed the last resort and not merely a way to suppress competition.

The company needs to demonstrate how they would proactively work with browser engine developers to establish strong security controls and threat monitoring on par with or exceeding their current practices for native-only experiences. This shifts the focus to building a safe environment rather than merely limiting the scope of capabilities.

Apple must guarantee that if and when these security challenges are met, it will progressively expand support for unrestricted use of web standards for third-party browser engines. This creates the long-term perspective the DMA is designed to protect and gives confidence to developers investing in advanced web app solutions.

Without taking action in these key areas, Apple's reliance on this DMA portion won't hold up to regulatory scrutiny. They cannot cite generic security dangers then fall back on "practicality" arguments without robust, evidence-backed reasoning.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#805
dma here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...

Apple cannot simply invoke DMA (50) as a free pass. For its arguments to align with the intent of the legislation, here's a roadmap of what they need to do to justify their security-based restrictions on iOS:

Apple must be transparent about the exact security issues posed by alternative browser engines with concrete instances (not merely speculative risks). They need to prove that these are unique to iOS, given the successful use of unrestricted browser engines on macOS (and every other OS).

Before opting for the extreme step of removing functionality, Apple needs to offer documentation of all the methods for managing and mitigating specific threats that were considered and subsequently ruled out as infeasible (sandboxing, enhanced APIs, etc.). This emphasizes that their actions are indeed the last resort and not merely a way to suppress competition.

The company needs to demonstrate how they would proactively work with browser engine developers to establish strong security controls and threat monitoring on par with or exceeding their current practices for native-only experiences. This shifts the focus to building a safe environment rather than merely limiting the scope of capabilities.

Apple must guarantee that if and when these security challenges are met, it will progressively expand support for unrestricted use of web standards for third-party browser engines. This creates the long-term perspective the DMA is designed to protect and gives confidence to developers investing in advanced web app solutions.

Without taking action in these key areas, Apple's reliance on this DMA portion won't hold up to regulatory scrutiny. They cannot cite generic security dangers then fall back on "practicality" arguments without robust, evidence-backed reasoning.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#806
post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What modern consumer-facing companies have come out of the EU in the past 20 years, besides Spotify? How is that list looking compared to the US? That's all the evidence you need that the EU has seriously fucked up with regards to encouraging tech innovation. A lack of tech innovation has terrifying implications for the EU long-term, such as reduced QoL, brain drain, economic decline, etc. - all of which are already…

It’s an interesting bias, that people use consumer facing European tech products and don’t even know it. Just have a look: https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E12AQFqW-dnIUTj2w/articl... Majority of educational software is European. That list above is missing Duolingo. A giant undoubtedly. Hey, did you know Gitlab was European, too? Or Skype? Or Waze? Or Booking.com? Or Skyscanner? Or even flightradar? PS. I didn’t l…

When the EU's biggest competitor to Apple, Google, and OpenAI is Spotify and Booking.com, there's a serious problem with the EU. It shows that the region is barely capable of encouraging innovation that will meaningfully advance technological progress, which is the single biggest predictor of quality of life in human history. Yes, the EU might be nicer to work in, more vacation days, less layoffs. Such a view is shortsighted and does not consider how suffocating innovation impacts humanity long-term, because your 15 extra vacation days simply will never measure up to the literal humanity-changing advancements technology provides.

In essence, you have improved QoL today but sacrificed it for generations to come, because your region has decided that it's not important to craft regulations that balance entrepreneurial spirit with consumer good. Ask any startup how difficult it is to deal with GDPR, I have literally seen startups give up over this. (Is GDPR good for consumers? Of course. Was it designed with literally any feedback from people interested in starting a business? No.)

Perhaps the US has too far on one side, but the EU has clearly gone too far on the other. And the EU can continue to freeload off the US's advancement, but if the EU's current model were to become global, there's precedent that human innovation would grind to a standstill.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not as necessary on Android because Android has alternative App distribution methods.

Right. Because downloading from alternate app stores or from the web is really easier than creating a PWA and is easier for discoverability. But that is a new retort when I ask that same question most of the time. Often it’s because of mean old Apple that PWAs aren’t more popular on Android. But since now that there will be alternate means of distribution in the EU, you should be okay with no PWAs in the EU?

Do you have a coherent point you're trying to make? We're discussing Apple here. These wanna be "gotchas" aren't nearly as clever as you think.

> But since now that there will be alternate means of distribution in the EU, you should be okay with no PWAs in the EU?

I see, a hardened Apple defender. Nice show of cards! There are no alternative means of distribution in the EU that don't involve paying large sums of money to Apple, but you already knew that.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#808
post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What modern consumer-facing tech companies have come out of the EU in the past 20 years, besides Spotify? How is that list looking compared to the US? That's all the evidence you need that the EU has seriously fucked up with regards to encouraging tech innovation.

If you’re going to lionize startups as the only thing which matters, you can’t exclude Spotify. And, yes, that list is very uneven because the U.S. financial sector has been very supportive of those but it’s not zero just because you don’t follow it. This is an especially interesting time to discuss it because the current layoff bloodbath has not been evenly distributed and the European side which never flew so high…

When the EU's biggest competitor to Apple, Google, and OpenAI is Spotify and Booking.com, there's a serious problem with the EU.

It shows that the region is barely capable of encouraging innovation that will meaningfully advance technological progress, which is the single biggest predictor of quality of life in human history.

Yes, the EU might be nicer to work in, more vacation days, less layoffs. Such a view is shortsighted and does not consider how suffocating innovation impacts humanity long-term, because your 15 extra vacation days simply will never measure up to the literal humanity-changing advancements technology provides.

In essence, you have improved QoL today but sacrificed it for generations to come, because your region has decided that it's not important to craft regulations that balance entrepreneurial spirit with consumer good. Ask any startup how difficult it is to deal with GDPR, I have literally seen startups give up over this.

(Is GDPR good for consumers? Of course. Was it designed with literally any feedback from people interested in starting a business? No.)

Perhaps the US has too far on one side, but the EU has clearly gone too far on the other. And the EU can continue to freeload off the US's advancement, but if the EU's current model were to become global, there's precedent that human innovation would grind to a standstill.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Because downloading from alternate app stores or from the web is really easier than creating a PWA and is easier for discoverability. But that is a new retort when I ask that same question most of the time. Often it’s because of mean old Apple that PWAs aren’t more popular on Android. But since now that there will be alternate means of distribution in the EU, you should be okay with no PWAs in the EU?

Do you have a coherent point you're trying to make? We're discussing Apple here. These wanna be "gotchas" aren't nearly as clever as you think. > But since now that there will be alternate means of distribution in the EU, you should be okay with no PWAs in the EU? I see, a hardened Apple defender. Nice show of cards! There are no alternative means of distribution in the EU that don't involve paying large sums of mone…

My points are the same neither consumers or the companies that make most of the money from mobile care about PWAs

My second point is if it just Apple and Safari holding back the adoption of PWAs, then why aren’t they more popular on Android if Chrome is so much better?

Why aren’t companies creating PWAs for Android to avoid the same 30% cut? Are they okay with paying “large sums of money” to Google?

Why aren’t they using third party app stores on Android or letting users download directly from them?

(And the HN gods are mad at me for some reason)

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#810

As a European dev I want apple to fail super hard and implode. They used to be so cool and make slick hardware for their nische but now I'm happy to use worse hardware as long as they disapear from the face of the earth.

As an American dev I can't wait to see tech companies leave the EU and leave it in shambles as the EU realizes it never learnt how to innovate, only legislate and rent-seek from our companies. Frankly, the region needs us far more than we need it.

> EU realizes it never learnt how to innovate, only legislate and rent-seek from our companies.

That's rich, you ought to look in the mirror. Apple and most of big tech started the "rent seeking and legislation" war by screwing over their users and developers, milking them both for every dime and their approach to so-called "innovation" is surprise - legislation. They've decided to simply ban competition from their platforms, neat!

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