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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#681

Post by thebruce87m »

the_gipsy wrote: post #504
addicted wrote: post #5

I don’t think Apple’s pettiness is gonna work in their favor. I am not in the EU but my next iPhone is almost certainly not gonna be an iPhone despite me having used a non iPhone for about 6 months in the last 15 years. Their throwing their customers under the bus just to throw a tantrum in the EU does not bode well for how they would treat their customers in other situations.

Im going to ditch my iPhone in favor of a Pixel. This attitude has pushed me over the edge, and the device isn't really any better than Android. Some aspects yes, but other are much worse. Dark patterns like the appstore/web/browsers restrictions and iCloud upselling are a big no-no. Never again.

I still can’t fathom how people can look at the pixel range with their multi-generational emergency call issues and still think “yep, that’s the phone for me”.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#682

Post by ambigious7777 »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #444
ambigious7777 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that maybe Apple's ideas or innovation has begun to run dry. Now they're just trying to milk every single penny before they become a background player.

2013 was the peak for me. iPhone 6 and Macbook Air 2013 the last good devices. i have macbook pro m2 at work and just typing into the terminal is laggy. plus random crashes, apps refusing to start no legacy app support. my windows 10 is much much more stable. their phones being turned into a super fragile glass brick with no consideration of hand ergonomics is peak hubris. and the face ID, pure marketing gimmick that…

First time I've heard Windows being more stable than MacOS, haha. I do own a Pro M2, and the experience is alright. My terminal is fine, but I also do get the crashes, and there's a lot of things that just bug me about the system.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#683

Post by shagie »

pjerem wrote: post #474
shagie wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand the legislation, Apple has three choices for how to comply with the law. They can either allow third party browsers the elevated system access that Safari currently has in order to be able to access the data for multiple PWAs ... which compromises Apple's security standards, but puts Safari and other browser engines on the same footing. Or, Apple can remove the additional security permissions that Saf…

> They can either allow third party browsers the elevated system access that Safari currently has That’s a fable. Apple have a good history in security design. There is absolutely no way Safari have some "system access" that another app can’t have. Safari is probably just as sandboxed by the OS than every other app or else that would be an incredibly stupid decision. If Apple wanted to implement PWAs correctly, they’…

It's not the Sandbox between Safari and Bank of America app - its the sandbox within Safari between the Bank of America PWA and Some Game PWA at issue.

Does Safari, as the browser engine running PWAs have access to the data of multiple PWAs?

If so, and Apple has good security - that's not a problem.

However, if Safari does have that access to multiple PWAs local data, and a different browser engine is used and also needs access to multiple PWAs data stores in order to be able to run them, what can Apple do to ensure that one PWA can't break out of its sandbox within the (as an example) Firefox PWA runner and access the data for another PWA?

If Apple cannot ensure that all browser engines have the rigorous design and/or history of security design and promptness of rolling out fixes when 0 days are discovered ... should Apple grant the additional security access for a 3rd party browser engine to be able to access the data of multiple PWAs?

If Apple should not grant that access because the other browser engines may not be as secure, then Apple (according to the law) must not grant its browser engine any favored position within the system.

The way to fill that requirement is to either figure out how to create additional sandboxes within 3rd party code so that PWAs running within FireFox cannot break out of their sandbox to access other PWAs ... or remove the ability for Safari to run PWAs all together.

And you pointed out yourself ... "If Apple wanted to implement PWAs correctly," - they apparently didn't implement PWAs correctly and are using sandboxing within Safari rather than sandboxing the PWAs and Safari combination at the OS level.

Should Apple invest the time to fix Safari and PWAs and 3rd party browser engines? Or given the low adoption of PWAs, is it less work and better security, and only a marginal loss of functionality to remove PWAs from Safari?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#684

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

zappb wrote: post #356
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any fundamental correctness of their viewpoint is by virtue of them representing more people (EU citizens) than Apple's CEO represents (himself and, I guess, the Apple corporation, if you count that). On moral issues, the fundamentally "correct" viewpoint (if there is one) is, by definition, the one that more people say is the fundamentally "correct" viewpoint.

China represents twice as many people as the EU. This is not an enticing argument. Can you at least qualify this with democratic representation?

Thank you for your comment. In the spirit of interpreting it in the most charitable way possible, I assume that when you say "China", you mean the Chinese government. The answer is that Chinese government doesn't necessarily represent people living in China. As you say, it is not democratic. That leaves us with few indicators of representation.

It has control over the people living in China, true, but I do not think controlling a person, being able to put them in jail if they don't obey you, is the same thing as representing them.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#685

Post by hu3 »

dagmx wrote: post #369
bloppe wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand what PWA's have to do with any of this. There is nothing that a PWA can do that a regular Chrome window would not be able to do. Apple is being force to support the latter. What's wrong with continuing to support the former? If it all boils down to "Apple users expect Apple to have control over everything, and if that expectation is violated, it will be really bad", then I'm sure EU regulators…

The Apple FAQ itself answers the second side of this. If a browser can add PWA, they can claim they’re installing an app, and it would not be clear to a user that they have a web app, not an isolated app. Now, none of these pseudo apps are guaranteed to be sandboxed from each other but the user cannot differentiate between apps that do provide security.

> Now, none of these pseudo apps are guaranteed to be sandboxed from each other...

Except they are! Any browser worth their salt have been doing isolation since the dawn of time.

Or do you really think bing.com can manipulate google.com cookies and storage?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#686

Post by seba_dos1 »

EricHolden12 wrote: post #673
anon373839 wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend that everyone interested in this topic read some of the comments from PWA developers at: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268643 Apple’s decision is going to kill businesses and break apps used by hundreds of thousands of people in Europe, many of whom are healthcare workers delivering patient care.

Patient care apps as PWAs? Yikes.

Patient care apps as native blobs for selected platforms? Yikes.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#687

Post by chrisjj »

thimp wrote: post #128
circuit10 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does removing web apps help anything? To me it seems like part of a ploy to create backlash against this law by removing features

It's a move against the third party browser engines which have been the bane of my existence from a security perspective on other platforms. For example, the about box in an Android app bundled a whole different browser engine which circumvented device policy entirely and allowed data to be exfiltrated. This app change was delivered in an update by clueless or lazy developers. This is not possible on iOS due to the p…

> For example, the about box in an Android app bundled a whole different browser engine which circumvented device policy entirely and allowed data to be exfiltrated. This app change was delivered in an update by clueless or lazy developers. This is not possible on iOS due to the platform restrictions.

If this prevention is by OS security, then your complaint is about the OS.

If it us by store guards, then yiu complaint is about the store.

So sorry, but I don't see how your complaint is properly about the browser engines.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#689

Post by seba_dos1 »

illumin8 wrote: post #399
thimp wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it was 6 months old and she doesn't care about it or phones. She thought it was broken. I charged it with my powerbank, an anker PD one and she ordered a proper charger off amazon. I gave her my spare USB-C cable. It was seen as a potential financial inconvenience having to do anything about it as well. Literally many people do not care enough to understand it. It's just a modern necessity, a tool.

This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can dr…

There are no USB cables that are limited to 5W, and standard non-PD USB-A ports can give you up to 15W.

The only case where you may need a different (non-passive, "e-marked") cable is when going above 60W (3A).

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#690

Post by chrisjj »

anon84873628 wrote: post #135
circuit10 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does removing web apps help anything? To me it seems like part of a ploy to create backlash against this law by removing features

I know it is not en vogue to be charitable towards tech companies, but it seems fair to assume that some teams are making a good faith effort to follow the law, and may be forced to accept imperfect design tradeoffs. Like they say, it affects a relatively small number of users, there is a sufficient workaround, and the technical fix would require major investment. Not everything is a conspiracy.

> it seems fair to assume that some teams are making a good faith effort to follow the law

Equally fair to conclude that one team here is not.

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