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German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

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Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#91

Post by heffer »

wolframhempel wrote: post #34

What surprised me about Schufa is that the certificate it provides only states that you didn't have any defaults or delinquencies in Germany. That's quite different from a credit rating in the US sense that you can build up by consistently borrowing and repaying over time. When I moved to Berlin after having lived in London, my Schufa was thus as pristine as possible - simply because I had no German credit history to…

I do feel they are increasingly modelling themselves after the US system, seemingly only impeded by stricter data protection laws. Schufa, as you said, used to be mostly the exchange of negative-only debtor information (i.e. Schufa having no information about you is a good sign for your creditworthiness). I'd say in the last 15 years (or so) we've arrived at the point where Schufa having no information about you is about as bad as having negative information. Exactly like in the US. The only difference being that for their main consumer product you are still fine to get the "Nothing negative to report" document, as that is what's accepted by most landlords.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#92

Post by chmod775 »

carlosjobim wrote: post #72
jonp888 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a collective payment system whereby everyone receives the same treatment, but high earners subsidize low earners, students and pensioners. Whether that is a good idea or not is of course a matter of debate, but it doesn't make sense to compare the benefits with the cost because they are not linked. If you are a really high earner you can opt out and pay a private risk-based premium instead.

The original commenter was complaining that he was paying €400 per month and not getting adequate service for what he is paying. Somebody else mentions that he's actually paying €800 per month (and not getting adequate service). That makes it even worse, and I'm surprised if somebody can not understand that.

From that amount I can tell they're at or near the maximum amount you can pay (a software dev salary will usually get you there). It currently tops out at 421,76 Euro and doesn't increase any further from there.

Many people at that income bracket opt for private insurance, because it will be cheaper and provide you better care.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#93

Post by calmoo »

prepend wrote: post #66
calmoo wrote: post #14

Some fun features of SCHUFA in Germany: 1. If you apply for a loan, this affects your credit rating. Yes - not get a loan, or default on a loan, simply by applying for a loan, your SCHUFA can be affected negatively. Especially if you are shopping around for loans, this is infuriating. This happens because your SCHUFA is affected simply by another entity checking your SCHUFA score. This is also really annoying because…

These aren’t random factors though, they are all correlated when higher risk of default. Would you like the models to ignore these predictors of financial strength? Because, you don’t like it?

I'm sure you would change your opinion when you immigrate to a new country, have to move around to different apartments because of a massive housing crisis, and then find an apartment long term and get accepted, and then get rejected based on your SCHUFA because you moved around multiple times and perhaps opened a bank account or two.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#94

Post by sofixa »

mschild wrote: post #11
shmeeed wrote: post #7

It's high time this issue gets sorted out by the courts and Schufa is finally forced to change their malicious business model.

Change it to what though? On the one hand, I think Schufa is collecting a lot of unnecessary data that they should'nt have access to. For example, when I bought a pre-paid SIM card in Germany the provider did a Schufa check. No idea why. On the other hand, I get why a credit score can be useful for larger purchase decisions. If I was a bank, I'd like to know if the person I'm lending 400k for a property, has in the p…

> On the other hand, I get why a credit score can be useful for larger purchase decisions. If I was a bank, I'd like to know if the person I'm lending 400k for a property, has in the past defaulted on any loans.

The amazing thing of living in the modern connected world is that we have all sorts of information available easily. We can use what other countries are doing as inspiration, or as learnings what not to do.

The problem you're describing has been solved for decades in tens of countries around the world, there's no point in reinventing the wheel. In France what the bank does is ask the national bank about the person's credit history, which will only contain current and past loans, lapses in repayments, being sent to collections, etc. So only stuff that is actually relevant to the question "has this person defaulted on loans previously and are they thus a risk of defaulting again", which together with the information about current revenues is all they need.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#95

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

> or public healthcare inaccessible despite paying more than 400€/month for it as a single individual.

This is super close to my early 2010's ACA experiences. Even when a poor earner could scrape up enough to buy a plan, the deductible made it unusable.

Policy pricing was exorbitant for $12k/yr earners but dropped enough for 22k/yr that a few plans were buyable. The challenge was coming up with another $somethingthousand to cover the deductible.

There was a sharp drop-off in plan pricing at 32k/yr and some mid-grade plans were in reach. IIRC deductibles were lower on those plans and they may have been usable (or nearly so).

What struck then. Of the news orgs cheering/damning the ACA, zero of them ever covered how pricing dropped as income rose. I assume that's because pricing was only ever disclosed to folks who completed the lengthy signup process - and news folks found it too daunting to experiment with.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#96

Post by freshbob »

anovikov wrote: post #85
tietjens wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello from Germany. No lies detected. Don’t forget about a working culture where process always ranks above results, and leaders commonly lack confidence to make pragmatic decisions.

Well, this working culture makes result slow and expensive, and as a result, in many cases uncompetitive, but it does a good job of avoiding fuckups and while slow and expensive, things usually get done predictably, on time and on budget. Which probably makes it better than American reckless "fake it till you make it" approach in most of the complex projects.

No, it absolutely does not. It might have in the past, when industry was booming in Germany and setup costs were huge and mistakes were very, very expensive. However, they've pretty much lost the race when it comes to software and digitalization, where setup cost is pretty much non-existent, mistakes are inexpensive (fail early, fail fast), and ROI are generally multiples of 100%.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#97

Post by sofixa »

lukan wrote: post #29
vdaea wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a service like Klarna means you're bad at dealing with money, so it makes sense.

Huh? Aren't they try to be mainly a online payment provider like paypal? That is how I used them couple of times. Money straight from my bank account via them, towards the shop.

They also provide payments plans (pay in 3/4 instalments, or over a year or two) which often, but not always, charge exorbitant rates. I've bought stuff split over 3-4 instalments multiple times for free or for a minimal processing fee (like 3 euros to pay 1600 euros in 4 instalments over 4 months). Always for stuff that I can afford outright, but would prefer to split the costs over multiple months.

They probably make their money from the seller who banks on the fact that people would be reassured of being able to afford the high priced item, and thus be making more sells than otherwise.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#98

Post by beezlebroxxxxxx »

odiroot wrote: post #83

In the process of renting a flat in Germany, SCHUFA is not even the biggest travesty. The worst part is potential tenants handing over full dossiers about their background to the prospective landlords. Passport copies, payslips, account statements and more. And as a tenant, you have no way of knowing when does it all end up. At best it will be dumped into a paper recycling bin. But who knows if all these documents ar…

It is incredible the amount of private information that gets exchanged in Germany to access certain things. You brought up landlords, but I've heard crazy stories about job applications or applications to services that "require" an incredible amount of private information (often even including pictures too!) handed-over for completely obscure reasons with no recourse if your application is denied or simply ignored.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#99

Post by interactivecode »

ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

Healthcare is kinda shit in The Netherlands. Long waiting lists even for simple things. Never actually prescribing medication but instead over prescribing paracetamol. Only being able to get a set amount for appointments regardless of actual need.

Sure if you’re in a car crash and urgently need care they will help you without going bankrupt but anything less urgent good luck getting an appointment this week / month / year

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#100

Post by jacquesm »

oytis wrote: post #77
ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

Is Netherlands healthcare better? From what I've heard from people having lived in both countries, German healthcare is more accessible. E.g. in Netherlands you can't see a specialist doctor unless you convinced your GP you absolutely have to - which can be hard at times.

I'm 58 and not exactly in the best of health. I've had to rely on healthcare in NL quite a few times over the last 20 years or so and all of those were serious cases. I have nothing to complain about, but that's n=1. To increment that n a bit: I know lots of people here and almost all of them have had some health issues over the years and the vast majority of those have been dealt with in a serious and reasonably effective manner.

Where NL is utterly ineffective is when it comes to vague symptoms. Until it is perfectly clear what is wrong you're going to be seriously frustrated because the diagnostic machinery isn't really all that effective, when in other countries they'd spend a fortune to find out what's wrong with you in NL unless it's 100% clear you're going to have a hard time getting the care that you need.

I blame Calvijn, NL seems to have a misplaced sense of reduced expression of emotion resulting in an expectation to tough things out rather than to deal with them and for some reason doctors seem to see complaints without a direct relatable cause as an attack of hysterics rather than as something to investigate. If you come from a different background you're going to find this a very difficult thing to deal with.

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