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German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

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Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#71

Post by fabian2k »

panki27 wrote: post #68
fabian2k wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an overly negative and hyperbolic view. Nothing is entirely wrong here, but you're painting every single point in the most negative way possible. You can certainly argue about how good the healthcare system is in the end, but it isn't categorically inaccessible. And if you pay 400 EUR/month you're earning enough money and can choose the private health system if you prefer that. The credit ranking also works in…

While choosing to be in the private system is an option, it only "makes sense" if you make at least 70k€ a year, so definitly not for everyone. The issue is not getting in - but getting back out before you retire and don't have enough available income to pay the rates anymore.

If you pay ~400 EUR for the public healthcare you make 70k or more.

The cost for public healthcare is scaled by income, and is limited around 400 EUR. It's a bit higher now, but I would suspect that the OP is not necessarily talking about the most current values here and is hitting the older limit and therefore earning more than the "Beitragsbemessungsgrenze".

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#72

Post by carlosjobim »

jonp888 wrote: post #62
carlosjobim wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're effectively paying 800€ at the very least. That makes it worse! Not better.

It's a collective payment system whereby everyone receives the same treatment, but high earners subsidize low earners, students and pensioners. Whether that is a good idea or not is of course a matter of debate, but it doesn't make sense to compare the benefits with the cost because they are not linked. If you are a really high earner you can opt out and pay a private risk-based premium instead.

The original commenter was complaining that he was paying €400 per month and not getting adequate service for what he is paying. Somebody else mentions that he's actually paying €800 per month (and not getting adequate service). That makes it even worse, and I'm surprised if somebody can not understand that.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#73

Post by bombcar »

jonp888 wrote: post #60
ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

I'm a bit surprised you would consider the credit system the same as the US. It doesn't have the bonkers bit of the US system where you have to take great care to be in a small amount of debt even if you don't need to be, in order to "prove" your creditworthiness so that you can be in a lot of debt later.

Being in debt to build credit is mostly a fairy tale told by the companies - just having an open line of credit is all you need to provide account age. You don’t need to use it or carry a balance (you may need to use it periodically to keep it open but that can be charge/pay off immediately).

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#74

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

jonp888 wrote: post #60
ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

I'm a bit surprised you would consider the credit system the same as the US. It doesn't have the bonkers bit of the US system where you have to take great care to be in a small amount of debt even if you don't need to be, in order to "prove" your creditworthiness so that you can be in a lot of debt later.

It's starting to creep into public services. You couldn't even get easy access to Covid stimulus funds without a credit card. Debit cards were rejected despite providing the same level of ID verification.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#75

Post by ArmandGrillet »

albert180 wrote: post #61
ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

That's utter bullshit. Your quality of care in the hospital is exactly the same as with public health insurance. Also sometimes private insurance is even worse when it comes to addiction and psychological treatments

Just open Doctolib and tell me it's the same when looking for any kind of doctor. The difference in waiting time is 3 months, bare minimum.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#76

Post by bombcar »

carlosjobim wrote: post #72
jonp888 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a collective payment system whereby everyone receives the same treatment, but high earners subsidize low earners, students and pensioners. Whether that is a good idea or not is of course a matter of debate, but it doesn't make sense to compare the benefits with the cost because they are not linked. If you are a really high earner you can opt out and pay a private risk-based premium instead.

The original commenter was complaining that he was paying €400 per month and not getting adequate service for what he is paying. Somebody else mentions that he's actually paying €800 per month (and not getting adequate service). That makes it even worse, and I'm surprised if somebody can not understand that.

But as a higher earner he’s paying 800€ so that someone poorer can pay 100€ and not get adequate service. ;)

As an American I choose to ignore this and pretend that everywhere else has perfect healthcare and government.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#77

Post by oytis »

ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

Is Netherlands healthcare better? From what I've heard from people having lived in both countries, German healthcare is more accessible. E.g. in Netherlands you can't see a specialist doctor unless you convinced your GP you absolutely have to - which can be hard at times.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#78

Post by rob74 »

bun_terminator wrote: post #21
mschild wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 3 other companies in Germany that offer the same service. Schufa is the most well-known one but far from a monopoly. That said, I agree with you. It needs to go.

I have never heard of that. Schufa is THE thing you need for everything. Hard to believe they're not a monopoly in practice?

Maybe it's the same as with TÜV? There are other companies that offer the mandatory recurring technical inspection of your car ("Hauptuntersuchung"), e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekra, but "TÜV" has become synonymous with the process itself...

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#79

Post by bombcar »

dhoe wrote: post #39

I almost didn't get a mortgage in the Netherlands because if you're German, they request a Schufa report, and there was a minor issue on that. Had I come from e.g. Bangladesh instead of from Germany, I would not have had this problem. We found a workaround and ten years later the house is paid off, just for illustration of how predictive that report was. I'll cheer for whoever takes on and fights Schufa, always.

The underlying issue is that bankers have no discretion (for various good and bad reasons). Everything is bureaucracy and checking the right boxes to let the computer decree your worthiness. No overrides, no explanations permitted - unless you can attack the problem from another angle.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#80

Post by data_maan »

prepend wrote: post #66
calmoo wrote: post #14

Some fun features of SCHUFA in Germany: 1. If you apply for a loan, this affects your credit rating. Yes - not get a loan, or default on a loan, simply by applying for a loan, your SCHUFA can be affected negatively. Especially if you are shopping around for loans, this is infuriating. This happens because your SCHUFA is affected simply by another entity checking your SCHUFA score. This is also really annoying because…

These aren’t random factors though, they are all correlated when higher risk of default. Would you like the models to ignore these predictors of financial strength? Because, you don’t like it?

As the previous person pointed out, these predictors have cases when they are obviously wrong.

Solely relying on statistics will have people falling through the cracks.

A perfect example of when thinking only in averages, and using trendy data-first approach leads to awful and stupid results for groups with too little size to matter statistically. Make your models fair, ffs!

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