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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#641

Post by survirtual »

dagmx wrote: post #369
bloppe wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand what PWA's have to do with any of this. There is nothing that a PWA can do that a regular Chrome window would not be able to do. Apple is being force to support the latter. What's wrong with continuing to support the former? If it all boils down to "Apple users expect Apple to have control over everything, and if that expectation is violated, it will be really bad", then I'm sure EU regulators…

The Apple FAQ itself answers the second side of this. If a browser can add PWA, they can claim they’re installing an app, and it would not be clear to a user that they have a web app, not an isolated app. Now, none of these pseudo apps are guaranteed to be sandboxed from each other but the user cannot differentiate between apps that do provide security.

PWAs adhere to the same-origin policy, and all browser security policies associated. This means isolated storage (indexed db & local storage), isolated permissions, etc. Every modern browser has support for this.

One webpage accessing the resources and data of another webpage is among the most basic of things globally known to be disallowed. This sandboxing reasoning is extremely bad faith.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#642

Post by brookst »

TheCapeGreek wrote: post #490
dangus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?

>technical solution looking for a problem In some regards yes. In practical regards they're a threat to app store margins (on all app stores, not just Apple), so there's no incentive to truly support them other than developers being loud about it. >I don’t even know where to find one. Because Apple has crippled the ability for you to use them, so developers can't really spend time working on them. Chicken and egg pro…

Isn’t all regulation about activities, not outcomes?

If a regulator enforces a ban on dihydrogen monoxide in a misguided attempt to reduce global warming, should companies comply with the regulation or the presumed intent?

The EU is demonstrating the folly of legislation tech product design at this level of detail.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#643

Post by brookst »

ikekkdcjkfke wrote: post #454
treflop wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Apple’s PoV, PWAs don’t earn them any money, aren’t forced through review by Apple, and decrease lock-in. There is no incentive for Apple to support PWAs.

So it is now their fiduciary duty to enshitify the web? Nice system

That cringe neologism refers to shifting from making money by delivering value to users to making money by exploiting the user base.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#644

Post by brookst »

shuckles wrote: post #338
jdminhbg wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are PWAs really popular on Android?

I think the advocate retort is that lack of support on iOS makes them a nonstarter for developers on all platforms. I think this argument is more of an excuse.

I can’t believe Apple is holding back my vision for a resurgence of COBOL apps. If only Apple would support native cobol apps, surely Android would follow and the world would see peace and prosperity forever. /s

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#646

Post by mo_42 »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

I think the DMA is not the best legislation. Some parts don't require regulation whereas missing parts definitively require regulation. For example, I cannot publish my app in the app store. I don't need an alternative market. I'd like to have an anti-discrimination law for app publishers (side note, I'm not trying to publish a porn app, just a small productivity app for a limited audience).

In a previous comment [1], I considered abandoning Apple. With this official statement, I'll actually switch to Android. I'll welcome the F-Droid store very much.

Apple, I've been your customer since 2006. I started with the iPod. During this time I had a significant fraction of your lineup. I'm not affected by your changes but I'm using some PWAs. With this erratic behavior, I'm afraid you kill features that I'm using.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39299007#39299469

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#647

Post by fauigerzigerk »

rmbyrro wrote: post #635
beeboobaa wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an absolute crock of shit. Someone at apple must be feeling really, really pathetic lately. Why can't they just get over themselves and actually deliver a useful product instead of trying to achieve cult status?

I dislike how Apple is evolving as an evil corporate, but they seem to have a real security and privacy concern on this issue.

I completely understand that companies will defend their own business interests. But the extent to which Apple has been leaning on spurious security arguments in order to do that is really starting to damage their reputation and in fact the security of their platforms.

Clearly, they're just making a point here, hurting developers and users just to spite a regulator.

What they are signalling to me as a developer is that mobile devices are just not a reliable platform. Better do as much as possible on the server.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#648

Post by andix »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #297
andix wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the biggest fanboys will understand it's Apples fault. The laws apply to all the manufacturers and just Apple "thinks differently".

Then you don’t know Apple fanboys. If Apple releases an automatically installing iOS patch that bricks everyone’s iPhones (including theirs) unless they agree to subscribe to a Hardware Maintenance Plan™ of 19.99 USD per month, the first reaction from fanboys would be “Was waiting for Apple to do something like this. This is how it is supposed to work. It took them so long. Good on them getting rid of non-serious iOS…

How right you are, just a few comments apart: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39394424

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#649

Post by rpdillon »

beeboobaa wrote: post #625
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

What an absolute crock of shit. Someone at apple must be feeling really, really pathetic lately. Why can't they just get over themselves and actually deliver a useful product instead of trying to achieve cult status?

I've been thinking about this and I think Apple has two motivations.

1. The DMA is striking at the heart of their revenue model by targeting the app store. Tim Cook testified before Congress and said that Apple would be "giving up our total return" on their intellectual property if they did not monetize the app store aggressively. So my read is that this move is intended to prevent a shift to PWAs as a way to get around the new policies.

2. Legislation like the DMA, if successful, could spread to other countries, much in the same way the link tax spread from Australia to Canada. I think Apple has an explicit goal to make this legislation as painful as possible, for both the legislators and the citizens, so that other countries do not attempt to pass similar laws.

There was a time between 2007 and 2011 where I bought Apple computers and was a big fan. These days, despite the very cool new processors Apple has released, it's very hard for me to see them as anything other than antagonistic. What a fall from grace.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#650

Post by cal85 »

tester89 wrote: post #167
thimp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

The only PWA that I think gets any use on i(Pad)OS is that for the Financial Times.

I thought that was gone but you’re right, app.ft.com still works and can be installed as a full screen PWA. But the main site, ft.com, isn’t a PWA (or at least, it doesn’t install as a full screen web app). I had assumed they had shut down the PWA, because I haven’t seen any promotion/mention of it for years (and I use ft.com a lot) so I don’t know how regular people would find out about it these days.
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