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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does that look like, in your mind? The EU coerces Apple engineers to work for free?

I'd personally love a sort of anti-trust czar who can just very unbureaucratically slap large tech companies with sensitive fines. If you had someone like that in charge and the moment companies engage in malicious compliance (for example cookie acceptance dark patterns) you go "now you pay 2% of your revenue in fines, you pull the same thing again we'll double the fine next month", how long does it take until compan…

Just imagine all the corruption that would be possible!

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#512
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

So what's a Home Screen Web App in this context? Is it adding a bookmark to the home screen (you open it, and it opens in the regular full iOS Safari), or something else?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#513

Regardless of who is the bad guy here, the outcome of this is just devastating for the free web. For me the future trajectory of Apps were PWAs, which worked reasonably well lately. As small company, creating one App that works everywhere and is available without AppStores was just great. Much money spent on PWAs just wasted. This is a terrible outcome, again caused by "well meant" but unpractical EU regulation.

ROFL. This isn't "unpractical EU regulation" but once again a corporation doing malicious compliance. At some point they really should just get banned from the market with any IP rights getting invalidated.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#514

Regardless of who is the bad guy here, the outcome of this is just devastating for the free web. For me the future trajectory of Apps were PWAs, which worked reasonably well lately. As small company, creating one App that works everywhere and is available without AppStores was just great. Much money spent on PWAs just wasted. This is a terrible outcome, again caused by "well meant" but unpractical EU regulation.

Why can’t the user be given the option of PWAs working like they do now with Safari or this new system that clearly sucks.

It’s obvious Apple is having a temper tantrum about being regulated, but it’s not wise for a company to behave like this.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#515

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

My hat's off to Apple PR on this one: they came up with some spin for why they were adding a malicious component to how they are complying with the DMA.

They're likely not lying when they say that it's more difficult to maintain their security standards while at the same time allowing any browser engine to run PWAs. But this is a problem they absolutely could solve, and a company with Apple's size and skill absolutely has the resources to make this work. But they've chosen not to.

Another option would be to actually engage with EU regulators on the issue, and see if they could carve out an exception -- temporary or otherwise -- to allow them to require PWAs to run under their existing WebKit-based framework, regardless of the default browser. But they've again chosen not to do that.

PWA adoption is likely as low as Apple claims. I think they're toeing a line here: because Home Screen Apps are a bit of a niche feature, they can break it without pissing off too many users, but also give a subtle middle finger to the EU. "Poor Apple users, Apple just has to disable a feature some people like because of the evil, overreaching EU and its burdensome DMA!"

This is a shame in that I personally think we all should be relying less on mostly-closed-source, proprietary apps for everything. While the web platform is a bit of a mess, it actually does (or could) offer the same functionality that native apps do, especially if Apple and Google had worked on that sort of thing over the past 15+ years rather than pushing native apps so hard. We'd be in a much better place if that were the case: consider the savings in time and money if every company out there could just write a single PWA and not have to build two completely separate apps for iOS and Android. (Yes, I know there'd be some extra people dedicated to fixing issues caused minor but significant-enough differences between the platforms, but it'd still be a ton less work than two apps for two different platforms.)

Also consider how much easier it would be for other smartphone platforms to break into the space, if all existing apps (as PWAs in my imaginary smartphone-utopia) would run on their platforms without much work. A big reason I will likely never adopt an alternative smartphone platform is because none of the apps I rely on day-to-day exist on them. Even though I'd absolutely love to ditch Android, but don't consider iOS any more palatable.

Anyway, that ship sailed a long time ago. I'm still bitter about it, though.

Ultimately this won't matter much. The number of people using PWAs on iOS is probably a rounding error. Restrict that to only people in the EU and it's even smaller. But Apple still gets in a jab at the EU over this, and most affected users will likely side with Apple on this one.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#516
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree philosophically about owning stuff, this isn't about that. If the only problem were "Apple doesn't give you the keys", then competition is a solution. The problem is network effects. An app developer cannot just choose to develop for Android, because maybe 90% of their business comes from iOS users. A user cannot just choose to use Android, because half their friends use iOS and cannot have a decent gro…

> If the only problem were "Apple doesn't give you the keys", then competition is a solution. A solution. The solution is to make them to do what's good for us by force of law. We can't afford to wait a century for some open mobile hardware platform to become available to us. We want good products now . Apple computers are good products and we should have every right to run whatever software we want on them now . The…

Do you not consider the software part of the product? By any reasonable measure, the software is the product, and the hardware enables that product to operate.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#517
Frankly, Apple's position enrages me.

It's okay that Apple doesn't like a European law. As a US-based company, it makes sense that it feels like a foreigner is meddling in their affairs... It's okay that they continue to have the hubris that Apple, and Apple alone, knows what's best for everyone.

However... the democratically-elected institutions of the EU represent a total of 447 million people. Most technologists I know in the EU are pro-DMA.

It doesn't feel like Apple has ever engaged in any kind of external discussion around this, or any kind of acknowledgment that there may be an issue with their current policies.

It's like walking it the courtroom with bloody hands and screaming in an obviously fake British accent "MURDER?!? THAT IS RIDICULOUS, Your Honor. I AM WEARING A TUXEDO."

Apple's arguments at every single junction have been nothing short of ridiculous. My favorite one:

"Apple operates 5 distinct App Stores: the iOS App Store, the macOS App Store, the iPadOS App Store, etc..., and only the iOS one is big enough to be a "gatekeeper"." [0]

COME FUCKING ON. HIRE BETTER LAWYERS.

[0]: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/2...

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yeah man EU is totally gonna break up apple. Some of y'all need to be reminded to be realistic.

The US might. Microsoft narrowly avoided a company breakup over web browser policies, it seems entirely feasible that Apple's App Store could lead down the same path.

Or any of their embedded features. Apple Pay, for example.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#519
Why can’t Apple continue to provide the normal way progressive web apps function when Safari is selected (that work like they do outside of the EU) and provide this other system for alternative browsers makers?

I don’t believe they are trying to abide by the spirit of the EU law and are trying their best to behave extremely poorly towards it in how they are complying, choosing the most user hostile interpretations possible. I hope the EU issue the maximum fine.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#520
post #447

Why is Apple given so much leniency? just give Apple a 5 year ban in Europe, you'll see how quickly they decide to start begging and complying.

I think I agree, if that is legally possible. I don't think apple provides any important infrastructure like Amazon, Microsoft and Google do. It's basically a luxury company. Might be bad for the people who already own iOS devices and need it to survive in one way or another (e.g. as a wallet).

Well apple could still operate the devices that they've sold, they just wouldn't be able to sell for a specified period of time, doubtful apple removes support anyways because then they customer trust.
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