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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#331

Post by matheusmoreira »

shusaku wrote: post #229
addicted wrote: post #5

I don’t think Apple’s pettiness is gonna work in their favor. I am not in the EU but my next iPhone is almost certainly not gonna be an iPhone despite me having used a non iPhone for about 6 months in the last 15 years. Their throwing their customers under the bus just to throw a tantrum in the EU does not bode well for how they would treat their customers in other situations.

This is exactly why this legislation is stupid: if you don’t like the way Apple does things just buy an android.

But I do like the way Apple does things. To be specific, I want to buy Apple hardware and I want to run Linux on it.

What I don't like is the little digital fiefdom they created. When we buy stuff, we're supposed to own them. The problem is they just refuse to give us the keys to the machines. So we absolutely should make it a matter of law.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#332

Post by shagie »

m-p-3 wrote: post #239
shagie wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you add a PWA (with Safari) a year ago to your Home Screen and then change your browser to Firefox, and that PWA breaks out and steals some other application data... Will you blame the software maker that you used to install the icon on the screen? or the one that is seemingly unrelated to the icon on your Home Screen?

Why silently change the underlying browser engine of an existing PWA without the user's knowledge? That sounds like a bad UX. At least make the existing PWA stay with Safari and provide the ability to switch the underlying engine for each PWA afterwards if migrating is possible.

As I understand the legislation, Apple has three choices for how to comply with the law.

They can either allow third party browsers the elevated system access that Safari currently has in order to be able to access the data for multiple PWAs ... which compromises Apple's security standards, but puts Safari and other browser engines on the same footing.

Or, Apple can remove the additional security permissions that Safari uses in order to access the data of multiple PWAs so that Safari and other web browsers are on the same footing again.

Or, Apple can invest significant time and resources into creating a new sandbox for browser engines (including Safari) such that a PWA running in the browser engine will not be able to escape and access the elevated permissions of the browser engine or the data of other PWAs through a flaw in the browser engine.

Given the amount of effort that the third option would take, the low adoption of PWAs from most users within the European market, and the not going to compromise on the first option - the second option of removing security permissions from Safari (and other browser engines) to run PWAs is the only option to comply with the law in Europe.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#333

Post by FireBeyond »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #271
munk-a wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a win for consumers - I'd much rather there remain more OS competition on mobile devices[1] but if Apple wants to pursue a business model that excludes large portions of the world from their customer base that's their decision. I don't believe there exists any maliciousness from the EU towards Apple - they do, after all, benefit greatly from corporation tax revenues from Apple and iPhones are stil…

I don't see how you can call EU having any expectation of freedom when commenting about a law which forces a company to comply to regulation. This actively reduces freedom, the freedom of running your business. You just don't care about it. If you don't like walled gardens you can just not use them (I certainly never bought anything Apple for this very reason), there's no need to infringe on the freedom of everyone e…

> If you don't like walled gardens you can just not use them (I certainly never bought anything Apple for this very reason), there's no need to infringe on the freedom of everyone else who wants to use walled gardens.

No-one's forcing Apple customers to go outside the walled garden. They can still source their apps from only the Apple App Store.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#334

Post by derefr »

wokwokwok wrote: post #315
arghwhat wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really doesn't make sense. By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. PWA's only need a few extra integration privileges like badge- and window control, rest is just a web as usual. What you link is a case of one app (edge) reading the data of another app (chrome), which is entirely unrelated to PWAs.

> By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. Indeeed, and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. That's the argument; if you write an app that lets you run other apps inside it how do we make sure your app does security correctly? When you look at it from that perspective, you can…

> you can see that unless at an OS level you provide additional 'meta-security' features that allow apps that run in other apps to have fine grains access control that is managed by the OS, it's pretty much "security? Well, whatever...".

I don't think that's the only solution. A simple alternative is to declare that "apps that run in other apps don't get to do anything at all."

I.e. in this case, in response to a EU requirement to support alternative browser engines, Apple could — rather than disabling PWA integration altogether — drop all additional privileges that PWAs have that regular webpages don't.

Make installed PWAs in the EU market into just "webpages, but with a home-screen icon, a separate task-manager card, and no address bar." Which is 99% of the reason anyone installs a PWA anyway. No camera/microphone, no extra storage, etc. Not for Chrome PWAs, not for Safari PWAs; not for any PWAs (on these devices.) They're just webpages presented differently. No "meta-security" required!

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#335

Post by trinsic2 »

mckn1ght wrote: post #285
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any fundamental correctness of their viewpoint is by virtue of them representing more people (EU citizens) than Apple's CEO represents (himself and, I guess, the Apple corporation, if you count that). On moral issues, the fundamentally "correct" viewpoint (if there is one) is, by definition, the one that more people say is the fundamentally "correct" viewpoint.

What you should be comparing is the percentage of the market the EU represents in the total market available to Apple. EU politicians are accountable to their population. Apple’s CEO is accountable to every Apple customer. The EU does not now, nor has it ever, constituted a majority of Apple revenue.

I'd argue that's not the case. CEO's are accountable to share holders, not its customers. And before you say its the same thing, there are a lot of pubically traded companies who get away with unlawful actions that direct effect its customer's for a long, long time without their bottom line being effected.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#336

Post by joshxyz »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #93

Said it before and it seems clearer every day, that we're in an era reminiscent of the 1920s with big mobs fighting it out. One of the old games back in town is protection rackets [0], digital forms of ransacking, vandalism, threats and "tax" collecting are all the rage dontchyknow. Everyone's got their "security" to give you. But it ain't your security, and it ain't compatible with noone else's. Nice app store you g…

love this.

history often rhymes and really rhymes on this one.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#337

Post by cherioo »

bloppe wrote: post #317

So, here's Apple's concern, which is valid: every website (PWA) should have isolated storage (cookies etc), and independent access to system resources (webcam etc) confirmed by the user on a per-site basis. I think we can all agree that's how things should be. Previously, Safari handled these requirements because it's a modern browser (isolated storage has been a cornerstone of browser security for a long time), and…

The difference is, whether or not, when iOS user clicks an icon to open an ”app”, they can be confident whether or not the app is “secured” or not.

Hypothetically, without apple doing this, opening a PWA1 app can caused its data to be siphoned off by PWA2, up to isolation of the browser.

Whether or not that is a legitimate enough concern is up to each individual.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#338

Post by shuckles »

jdminhbg wrote: post #228
benguild wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

So are PWAs really popular on Android?

I think the advocate retort is that lack of support on iOS makes them a nonstarter for developers on all platforms. I think this argument is more of an excuse.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#339

Post by shuckles »

jeroenhd wrote: post #138
TheGlav wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they could. They looked at the cost of rewriting the entire integration and framework for running PWAs and said, "eh, nah."

They'll have to allow some kind of app installation API to allow for alternative app stores. If Google implements some kind of WebAPK technology on iOS, they may just be able to launch a Google Play for iOS to work around these PWAs as a workaround, and Safari will be down a feature. I have the feeling Apple is betting on Google not caring enough about the PWA platform to try to compete. Maybe they're right, but if t…

My guess is it's easier for developers to throw their website into Cordova than to start paying Apple a Core Technology Fee and convince users to download an alternative app marketplace to support what is effectively a differently packaged Cordova app.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#340

Post by shuckles »

kibwen wrote: post #262
robertlagrant wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this? Looking at these things as sides is a mistake. Instead of just being tribal, it's better to look positions on their merits.

I've been asking these people for the merits of Apple's decisions for years, and all I ever get in response is "Apple knows best, I don't need these features."

That seems like a perfectly reasonable argument on the merits. What user actually needs web apps? What's the market for apps whose developers can't stomach a $99 developer fee and/or with functionality not allowable by app review?
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