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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#261

Post by dazilcher »

SigmundA wrote: post #238
rchaud wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android handles this just fine. These are the world's largest corporations we're talking about, not some mom and pop shop that will be crushed under the heel of overzealous regulation.

So Android allows alternative rendering engines besides Chrome for PWA? If you install Firefox it uses Gecko but still has native app look feel? I honestly don't know but would be surprised if they did.

"On Android, Firefox, Chrome, Edge, Opera, and Samsung Internet Browser all support installing PWAs."

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#262

Post by kibwen »

robertlagrant wrote: post #141
luuurker wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?

> What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this? Looking at these things as sides is a mistake. Instead of just being tribal, it's better to look positions on their merits.

I've been asking these people for the merits of Apple's decisions for years, and all I ever get in response is "Apple knows best, I don't need these features."

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#263

Post by addicted »

M4v3R wrote: post #79
summerlight wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we trust Apple for security in that context? Apple also provides all those functionalities via their proprietary API, which is not even audit-able. If Apple really believes in that argument, they should disable their own API as well.

You have to trust someone if you're using a computing device connected to the Internet. The point of being in Apple ecosystem is that you trust Apple, and then (supposedly) you can not trust anyone else. To many that's a very strong proposition.

Why can’t I choose to trust Apple for iOS and another developer for other functionality that runs on iOS?

We do this all the time. I don’t uniquely depend on Microsoft for stuff that runs on Windows. Same for stuff that runs on macOS. And on Linux I’m not even sure who I’m trusting from the ground up other than a huge and disparate collection of people.

So what makes iOS so unique that it can’t run PWAs, which is little more than adding some chrome and a handful of APIs to already pre-existing browser capabilities.

What an F’ing joke. And the bigger joke are the Apple fans who are going out of their way to defend Apple sticking it up their nether parts.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#264

Post by Pfhortune »

SigmundA wrote: post #238
rchaud wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android handles this just fine. These are the world's largest corporations we're talking about, not some mom and pop shop that will be crushed under the heel of overzealous regulation.

So Android allows alternative rendering engines besides Chrome for PWA? If you install Firefox it uses Gecko but still has native app look feel? I honestly don't know but would be surprised if they did.

> So Android allows alternative rendering engines besides Chrome for PWA?

Yes: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

I tested just now in Firefox with an app from https://appsco.pe and it does indeed work!

I can do the same with the Android version of Brave.

> If you install Firefox it uses Gecko but still has native app look feel?

That depends on your definition. Making an app _feel_ native is a matter of implementation. But the opposite is also true: A native app is free to feel non-native if the app creator makes it that way.

The app does show as a distinct entry in the app switcher, but still has a Firefox icon when I tested it just now.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#265

Post by kemayo »

fock wrote: post #207
kemayo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean the "read data from other web apps" part. That'd be because there's (presumably) not a system-level way to launch a third-party browser in "web app mode", with all data siloed off per-PWA. Thus the only way they could currently make web apps work would be to launch the third-party browser and trust that it silos everything adequately itself internally. Apple could add a bunch of new APIs to support…

the bunch of new APIs might just be a containerized copy of the users browser? Seems very easy.

I think there's a lot of edge cases, and just spinning up an entire new data container for iOS Chrome and launching a web app inside it would probably make Chrome very confused. (It wouldn't know to hide its normal tab/browser UI, to not nag the user about logging into their google account, etc.)

Like I said, Apple could totally make APIs so that Chrome could know it was being launched in a container with data isolation and should behave as a web app. Google could then adopt those APIs, with the alacrity that it's famous for showing with new iOS system APIs. But the behavior Apple is implementing here is probably how any default-browser that hadn't yet opted into those new APIs would have to behave.

(To be clear: I think Apple is being petty here by not having those APIs announced. But "we're going to regress everything to bookmarks" is probably more DMA-compliant than "things are better when you use Safari, and we promise we'll extend that to other browsers someday".)

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#266

Post by addicted »

summerlight wrote: post #142
chongli wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users trust Apple because Apple is ultimately accountable for security breaches on iOS devices. If a 3rd party app causes a data breach it does not matter if the breach was made possible by compliance with regulations like the DMA, Apple will still take the blame.

> Users trust Apple because Apple is ultimately accountable for security breaches on iOS devices. As a long time user of Windows which historically had an incomparably large amount of security incidents, I can assure you that Apple won't get blamed that much for 3rd party data breach unless it involves Apple's own service and user data.

What was the last 3rd party breach Apple took the blame for?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#267

Post by brikym »

accoil wrote: post #235
dbtc wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a good device to replace my iphone 13 mini?

What do you like about it? Size?

There aren't many small phones that aren't cheap and nasty. iPhone minis are small and premium which is rare. The android manufacturers really need to try harder. 6" is basically a tablet. It's really unnecessary for phones to be as big as they are today. UI designs have gotten more sparse and wasteful of screen real estate.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#268

Post by jwells89 »

shuckles wrote: post #187
weberer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know at least Firefox has per-site permissions for location, webcam, and microphone access. Is it a correct interpretation that Safari on iOS does not have this feature?

Their argument was they want the system (iOS) to enforce those permissions, not browsers on behalf of apps they've added.

Ideally there should be both browser-level and OS-level controls. Reduces the chances of things slipping through the cracks and it limits the blast radius in case a browser vendor can’t get a hole patched up quickly for some reason.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#269

Post by addicted »

Terretta wrote: post #222
arghwhat wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, while the argument is entirely bogus as "PWAs are unsafe" implies that loading web pages in that browser itself is unsafe and thus stopping PWAs but not loading pages is pointless, you do have to have full trust in Apple for security of your device as they are the sole provider for the core platform providing most of the security primitives used. That just doesn't exclude trusting others as well.

> Well, while the argument is entirely bogus as "PWAs are unsafe" implies that loading web pages in that browser itself is unsafe Except that's exactly what Apple is saying. Their engine -- and their brand depends on it -- offers users assurances arbitrary engines do not offer. Apple says PWAs are safe because Safari is safe, while not-Safari PWAs are not-safe. And, if not safe, Apple is at least accountable. Google'…

Apple’s inability to protect its “brand” while doing what nearly every other platform owner in the world does routinely does not justify monopolistic and anti competitive behavior.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#270

Post by stonegray »

pseudony wrote: post #153

On the point of trusting (big) Apple to keep us safe. This was linked in a similar discussion today. Either they knowingly provide backdoors for state actors or they are being so incompetent that it is laughable. Zero interaction remote exploit of hardware features designed to circumvent their own security measures? Why ? Seriously, find someone worthy of your trust, because that isn't Apple https://www.kaspersky.com…

I trust Apple more for this decision, not less. PWAs used WebKit to allow untrusted code (any website in this case) to safely execute on the phone. In the EU now, you can modify or replace that layer of trust (browser engine) and restricting camera access and local storage seems reasonable; these limitations are expected for websites.

I expect 3rd-party engines in the EU may choose to allow this, for example by launching in Chromium in full screen w/ additional permissions, but I'm glad this attack surface is reduced at least for right now.

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