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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#281

Post by seszett »

Someone wrote: post #114
ivan_gammel wrote: post #55

Very questionable argumentation. This can be seen from two different angles: 1. PWA is a native wrapper for a web application, not a browser. It is supposed to be limited to the app website. DMA does not tell Apple that every app with embedded WebView should offer users possibility to switch the engine. Why PWA should be treated differently here? I‘d rather clarify this with regulators first, before harming end users…

> DMA does not tell Apple that every app with embedded WebView should offer users possibility to switch the engine. I don’t see how that’s related to the issue being discussed. > In the meantime current solution could stay simply because it does not hinder any competition. Why do you think “you can install a third party browser, but if you do, you can’t add PWAs to the Home Screen” doesn’t hinder competition?

> Why do you think “you can install a third party browser, but if you do, you can’t add PWAs to the Home Screen” doesn’t hinder competition?

Is there any reason that you couldn't just install a third-party browser and add PWAs to the home screen that use WebKit as a rendering engine?

Why would these two different things affect each other?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#282

Post by bhelkey »

dbtc wrote: post #182
niutech wrote: post #169

Bad move from Apple. It's time to boycott iOS and move to FOSS alternatives, such as: AOSP, Ubuntu Touch, GNOME Mobile, KDE Plasma, Sailfish OS. Personally I am using both UBports and Sailfish OS and I appreciate the privacy they provide. As a possible workaround to fullscreen PWAs in iOS in the EU, I propose a convention to append some hash to the Web App Manifest start_url, e.g. #__pwa__, then set the default iOS w…

What's a good device to replace my iphone 13 mini?

I have enjoyed my Zenfone 10. It's a little Taiwanese phone that's a comparable size.

Specifically, I like its battery life, its camera, and that it has a headphone jack.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#283

Post by ambigious7777 »

SllX wrote: post #274
ambigious7777 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple could just say something like, "This app comes from a 3rd party browser engine, and it may not be secure. Are you sure you want to install this app?". Not too much effort, but still keeping the functionality.

I mentioned this in another comment but they built out over 600 APIs and a system of accompanying entitlements to comply with the DMA, they’re clearly not at this point just for PWAs going to throw up their hands and a scare sheet and say “good enough for government work, devs: do what you want now”. EU iPhone customers are still iPhone customers. The security and privacy considerations don’t go away just because a n…

Obviously, those considerations must be considered. However, as I said, adding a simple confirmation prompt would be plenty enough.

I think what is happening here, is that Apple is going like, "I don't get my market control, you don't get your shiny new features." Other phone platforms allow you to do things, that may be unsafe or insecure, but still plenty useful.

Also, running a PWA really isn't that unsecure/unprivate as visiting a website. They both can access and ask for the same information or permissions. Really not that different.

By your logic that PWAs are unsecure, then should iOS not support rendering webpages due to "security concerns"?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#284

Post by ambigious7777 »

amelius wrote: post #41
johanneskanybal wrote: post #25

As a European dev I want apple to fail super hard and implode. They used to be so cool and make slick hardware for their nische but now I'm happy to use worse hardware as long as they disapear from the face of the earth.

Yes, that's the way I feel too. I learned to program on an Apple ][ that I loved, before Jobs started his nefarious business practices. Woz's Apple was cool. Jobs' Apple makes me feel like they want to enslave developers, or at least milk them to the last drop.

I feel like that maybe Apple's ideas or innovation has begun to run dry. Now they're just trying to milk every single penny before they become a background player.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#285

Post by mckn1ght »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #200
geodel wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the majority of elected officials in EU fundamentally disagrees with that statement. Well, EU can and will force, fine, or ban US companies as they see fit but there is not some fundamental correctness to their viewpoint

Any fundamental correctness of their viewpoint is by virtue of them representing more people (EU citizens) than Apple's CEO represents (himself and, I guess, the Apple corporation, if you count that). On moral issues, the fundamentally "correct" viewpoint (if there is one) is, by definition, the one that more people say is the fundamentally "correct" viewpoint.

What you should be comparing is the percentage of the market the EU represents in the total market available to Apple. EU politicians are accountable to their population. Apple’s CEO is accountable to every Apple customer. The EU does not now, nor has it ever, constituted a majority of Apple revenue.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#286

Post by seszett »

aetherspawn wrote: post #205

I am on Apples side here. I have been a macOS and iPhone user for over a decade now, but have had Android devices and I use Windows for games and work. I think what the EU has done to Apple is unfair. It is unfortunate in my opinion that they can’t just tell them to get stuffed. They have had to build probably 100-million LOCs just so EU have the right to pick their own browser, and yet Safari works just fine. In fac…

> In fact the great thing about Safari (and Apple knew this) is that compatibility was really good precisely because everyone on mobile was using the same browser.

What a weird take.

Safari is the minority browser that takes so much work because of its quirks. The largest mobile browser by far is Chrome (65% vs 25%) and while it might be different in your particular bubble (probably the US? it's the only market where Apple is dominant afaik) it's well known that Safari is the equivalent of Internet Explorer in the bad old days.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#287

Post by justinclift »

munk-a wrote: post #226
paulmd wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, as I’ve said before: the root problem here is that the EU wants to outlaw apples business model. People don’t think of it that way, they tell themselves all the reasons why that’s a good thing, but that’s ultimately what it is - a legislative solution to end the “android vs iOS” debate for all time. The argument is walled gardens shouldn’t exist, so the solution is to either legislate requirements that apple de…

I feel like this is a win for consumers - I'd much rather there remain more OS competition on mobile devices[1] but if Apple wants to pursue a business model that excludes large portions of the world from their customer base that's their decision. I don't believe there exists any maliciousness from the EU towards Apple - they do, after all, benefit greatly from corporation tax revenues from Apple and iPhones are stil…

> NA's expectations for freedom

That'd be "corporate freedom" rather than "end user freedom" yeah?

That's my impression of what the NA model of freedom seems to mean these days.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#288

Post by munk-a »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #271
munk-a wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a win for consumers - I'd much rather there remain more OS competition on mobile devices[1] but if Apple wants to pursue a business model that excludes large portions of the world from their customer base that's their decision. I don't believe there exists any maliciousness from the EU towards Apple - they do, after all, benefit greatly from corporation tax revenues from Apple and iPhones are stil…

I don't see how you can call EU having any expectation of freedom when commenting about a law which forces a company to comply to regulation. This actively reduces freedom, the freedom of running your business. You just don't care about it. If you don't like walled gardens you can just not use them (I certainly never bought anything Apple for this very reason), there's no need to infringe on the freedom of everyone e…

I think this is a great example of what I had mentioned as social differences of freedom between the EU and NA - in NA the freedom of businesses is often well protected up until it causes actual harm to human beings[1] - in the EU the freedom of human beings tend to be given priority of those of companies. It's important to remember that there are a lot of freedoms in this world and they often conflict in major ways. A quote that I love is "Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins". Freedoms are extremely easy to guarantee if they're non-conflicting but that's rarely the case. In this case the EU is siding with the freedoms of the customers rather than the freedom of the corporation - whether that makes the society less or more free overall is a matter of opinion.

1. I'd point to a great example from one of our current justices in this regard: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/mar/23/neil-gorsuch-sup...

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#289

Post by vundercind »

luuurker wrote: post #64
lannisterstark wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just not.

What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?

I don't care about PWAs and would generally prefer companies not have the option so they can't try to push me into one. Anything that makes that less-viable is good for me.

I wish Apple'd held a hard line on the "no apps that should be a web site" rule(s) for similar reasons. Alas, they did not.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#290

Post by justinclift »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #271
munk-a wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a win for consumers - I'd much rather there remain more OS competition on mobile devices[1] but if Apple wants to pursue a business model that excludes large portions of the world from their customer base that's their decision. I don't believe there exists any maliciousness from the EU towards Apple - they do, after all, benefit greatly from corporation tax revenues from Apple and iPhones are stil…

I don't see how you can call EU having any expectation of freedom when commenting about a law which forces a company to comply to regulation. This actively reduces freedom, the freedom of running your business. You just don't care about it. If you don't like walled gardens you can just not use them (I certainly never bought anything Apple for this very reason), there's no need to infringe on the freedom of everyone e…

> line up their pockets with sponsors money.

That's not just an EU problem though. It seems to be well established (and perhaps worse?) in many places.

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