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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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241–250 of 829 posts

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#241

Browsers should only display documents, not apps. That's what operating systems are for. Just give native apps what made the web popular in the first place: • Ability to instantly launch any app just by typing its "name" • No need to download or install anything • Ability to revisit any part of an app just by copy/pasting some text and sharing it with anyone. That's what ultimately matters to end users.

The problem is systems developers haven't been able to settle one any platform for multi-platform apps. They a head start of decades before web browsers became popular and couldn't pull it off. Failure after failure.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#242
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely and that 2) they can't be bothered to provide the same API's for third party browsers because it's not "practical". They built their PWA support in an anticompetitive manner assuming App Store & WebKit would be a monopoly forever, and now as a result the…

They built their PWA support with assumptions about how the application, OS, and WebKit were going to run. That's like saying, "Oh, Microsoft didn't build an API layer into Windows to support running X11 apps side by side with Win32 apps, so they were being monopolistic." No, you have limited engineering time and you make engineering tradeoffs. You don't need to design an interface layer and API and hooks between sys…

No, it's saying that they shouldn't have designed a operating system with no support for other browsers (unlike lesser known alternatives such as "Apple Mac OS X") in the first place and that you shouldn't have any sympathy when such an anticompetitive technical design and behavior blows up in their face.

> They built it in such a way that it was sustainable and sensible for the time it was made (iOS 2.0).

Support for installing progressive web apps was added in iOS 11 [1], released in 2017. This is decade(s) after Microsoft was dragged to court in the US and EU for similar behavior with Internet Explorer. Of course being the authoritarian company they are, Apple would rather dig their heels until the bitter end instead of just doing the right thing.

> Saying "they should have just figured it out back then" is completely ignoring the reality of what was offered by the OS and the mobile space entirely at the time.

Sorry, but the rest of the mobile space did figure it out at the same time. All of the things being debated in this thread simply just work on any Android phone and Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox in a secure manner. I'm so tired of this reality distortion field.

[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/releasenotes/Gen...

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

It really doesn't make sense. By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. PWA's only need a few extra integration privileges like badge- and window control, rest is just a web as usual. What you link is a case of one app (edge) reading the data of another app (chrome), which is entirely unrelated to PWAs.

In my experience even "a few extras privileges" can take many months to implement, especially for a company as large as Apple.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#244
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair call on your first point about PWA knowledge level in users. Regarding your users knowledge of what USB-C is: are you sure your user group are not potato's? Most people I know, including the teenage daughters and their friends, all know what USB-C is these days.

One of them was going to buy a new phone because it took a long time to charge. This was because she had a crap charger and crap cable. I am unsure if they are potatoes or not but I suspect they might be :)

I don't necessarily think it applies in your example, but I've heard some very silly reasons given by people as their reason for upgrading.

I think a lot of the time people give an excuse, or perhaps even a justification to themselves, when they really just want the excitement of new phone. I often catch myself inventing reasons why I should replace my perfectly fine phone.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#245

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

The technical justification are bullshit. They simply could ask browser vendor to follow strict rules, that they can check themselves. This is not like they would have to verify dozens of browsers every day. Only a few per months, top.

[deleted]

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#246
post #231
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deliberately removing useful features from your own product so that you don't have to let other people implement the same features may be technically conforming to the letter of the law, but is clearly violating it in spirit. The spirit of the law is platform interoperability: your control over the platform shouldn't restrict what other people can make it do (be it "run an app store" or "run a web app").

When did it become illegal to take features away from a products or create derivative products with different features? The “spirit of the law” most certainly is not what you’re imagining. If they wanted, they could remove the App Store from iOS in EU, or pull the iPhone from the EU market entirely. Apple isn’t required by the DMA to part of a digital market at all.

> When did it become illegal to [...]

That's a question for regulators and lawyers. But in general yes: trying to evade a law instead of complying with its intended application is generally not viewed as unquestionably legal. In criminal law it's sometimes even taken as evidence of guilt!

> If they wanted, they could remove the App Store from iOS in EU, or pull the iPhone from the EU market entirely. Apple isn’t required by the DMA to part of a digital market at all.

And if the EU wanted, they could ban Apple products entirely. The point is that no one does stuff like this because there's a general sense that healthy competetive markets are good for everyone, and that the capitalist market will enforce this by punishing actors that try to cheat (in this case, by "trying to make more money by making your product worse").

But sometimes that market enforcement breaks down, in the face of trust/monopoly activities like (in this case) control over a computing platform. And when that happens it's routine for regulators to step in to try to right the ship.

And that ship is listing pretty badly right now. Apple is dancing as close to the edge of predatory monopolism as is possible. Again, they literally think they'll make more money by deliberately breaking their own customer's web apps. There's no way at all that's a healthy market. QED.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#247

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

Apple's argument was the iOS was a robustly secure platform AND the app store made it even more secure. The reality of the situation looks more like the app store was a bandaid over a maybe-not-as-robustly-secure-as-we-hoped platform.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#248
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely and that 2) they can't be bothered to provide the same API's for third party browsers because it's not "practical". They built their PWA support in an anticompetitive manner assuming App Store & WebKit would be a monopoly forever, and now as a result the…

This is why I purchase iOS devices - ultimately their closed garden provides a smaller attack surface, clearly evidenced by the comparative (to Android) cost of exploits on the black market. I cannot see this as anticompetitive. If you want open, you have that choice in Android.

> I cannot see this as anticompetitive. If you want open, you have that choice in Android

If Apple doesn’t support PWAs then PWAs stop being a viable method of app deployment - killing the platform outright. That’s anticompetitive.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#249
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

Android handles this just fine. These are the world's largest corporations we're talking about, not some mom and pop shop that will be crushed under the heel of overzealous regulation.

First, we should not be content to crush mom and pop shops with regulations.

Second, it’s entirely dependent on the regulation whether it crushes (or even just hurts) a behemoth.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#250
post #19
post #5

I don’t think Apple’s pettiness is gonna work in their favor. I am not in the EU but my next iPhone is almost certainly not gonna be an iPhone despite me having used a non iPhone for about 6 months in the last 15 years. Their throwing their customers under the bus just to throw a tantrum in the EU does not bode well for how they would treat their customers in other situations.

They're desperately hoping that their fanbois will howl so much, that MEPs will relent.

Even the biggest fanboys will understand it's Apples fault. The laws apply to all the manufacturers and just Apple "thinks differently".
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