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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#171

Post by anakaine »

thimp wrote: post #146
benguild wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

Fair call on your first point about PWA knowledge level in users. Regarding your users knowledge of what USB-C is: are you sure your user group are not potato's? Most people I know, including the teenage daughters and their friends, all know what USB-C is these days.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#172

Post by Wowfunhappy »

chongli wrote: post #161
summerlight wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users trust Apple because Apple is ultimately accountable for security breaches on iOS devices. As a long time user of Windows which historically had an incomparably large amount of security incidents, I can assure you that Apple won't get blamed that much for 3rd party data breach unless it involves Apple's own service and user data.

Since you’re a commenter on HN I’m going to assume you’re a tech person. I’m not talking about tech people, who through their discussions try to find the correct person/company to blame for issues. I’m talking about the general public. If a story about a data breach in a 3rd party app — affecting iOS users — hits the news cycle, Apple will take the blame and their brand reputation and sales will be impacted. It doesn…

I don't see how this matters to the GP's argument. Windows was a virus hotbed for decades and that does not appear to have affected its reputation in a meaningful way.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#173

Post by thimp »

anakaine wrote: post #171
thimp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

Fair call on your first point about PWA knowledge level in users. Regarding your users knowledge of what USB-C is: are you sure your user group are not potato's? Most people I know, including the teenage daughters and their friends, all know what USB-C is these days.

One of them was going to buy a new phone because it took a long time to charge. This was because she had a crap charger and crap cable. I am unsure if they are potatoes or not but I suspect they might be :)

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#174

Post by impossiblefork »

robertoandred wrote: post #27
deminature wrote: post #6

In combination with the 'Core Technology Fee' that financially cripples any developer that tries to release a popular app outside the official app store, this is pathetic behavior. Hopefully the EU smacks them down for this temper tantrum at being forced to adhere to the DMA. They are trying to flex their market power and should be reminded they operate within a system of laws that doesn't bend for anyone, regardless…

This IS adhering to the DMA. Every browser engine is treated the same.

I think that's very unlikely.

I interpret 6 (a) as basically requiring you to be able to install whatever software you like and to provide no mechanism whereby any fee can be demanded for such installation to be possible.

Apple tries to get around this by this core technology stuff, but APIs aren't even subject to copyright protection, and it's also basic interoperability stuff. I don't think the courts will see it the way I interpret your comment.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#175

Post by anakaine »

npunt wrote: post #124
sigmar wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heard. But we're going to entirely eliminate all PWAs because there might be an additional prompt added? Seems excessive/specious to me.

It's not one additional prompt, it's a class of prompts that could be exploited over and over again. A single site could trigger hundreds by sites popping up in the background each which trigger it, and then the user's home screen is full of fake PWAs with names like 'save money' 'in debt?' 'casino cash bucks' etc. Next you're developing mitigations, spam cleanup, etc. We've gone through this kind of thing before.

Are you sure we can't have additional plugin toolbars for Safari? Maybe have one or two that tell us that we can get paid to surf the Web, and a couple of others that definitely don't show popups?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#177

Post by Wowfunhappy »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #89
summerlight wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we trust Apple for security in that context? Apple also provides all those functionalities via their proprietary API, which is not even audit-able. If Apple really believes in that argument, they should disable their own API as well.

[flagged]

I share the GP's view and I use an iPhone because I must have access to iMessage and there is no alternate way to do that.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#178

Post by geodel »

summerlight wrote: post #145
anon84873628 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there is a significant number of people who consider it as a compromise rather than a value. I suspect that from Apple's perspective, it is definitively not a significant number. For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products".

> For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products". Yes, this might be true. And the majority of elected officials in EU fundamentally disagrees with that statement.

> And the majority of elected officials in EU fundamentally disagrees with that statement.

Well, EU can and will force, fine, or ban US companies as they see fit but there is not some fundamental correctness to their viewpoint

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#179

Post by samatman »

sigmar wrote: post #139
npunt wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not one additional prompt, it's a class of prompts that could be exploited over and over again. A single site could trigger hundreds by sites popping up in the background each which trigger it, and then the user's home screen is full of fake PWAs with names like 'save money' 'in debt?' 'casino cash bucks' etc. Next you're developing mitigations, spam cleanup, etc. We've gone through this kind of thing before.

The user would get rid of the app/browser that is doing this, no? The same way they would have to for any malicious app that persistently requests a special permission?

I'm guessing you've never had to clean up a relative's Windows machine. I wish I could say the same.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#180

Post by Gigachad »

cma wrote: post #36
zer00eyz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

But the plain browser already can request camera permissions, in a bad security situation a site that didn't request it still receives it from the browser's system level request. This is just Apple wanting to avoid people being able to develop a platform on top of their platform without paying a tax.

Browsers can still do that. It's more that PWAs look like entirely separate apps which the user would expect to be sandboxed. While a tab in a browser is clearly part of the browser app.
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