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Goodbye Auth0

joshcanhelp.com

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Re: Goodbye Auth0

#171

Post by DoughnutHole »

rescbr wrote: post #149
artyom wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because losing your job is really a bummer everywhere, but in Europe you've got a lot of things covered by the welfare state (how well, it's a different discussion), so it's less stressful, which reduces the probability of people being really pissed . In the US, you're probably out of healthcare in the blink of an eye, may have no severance, no coverage, no unemployment benefits, and in some cases it'd mean deportati…

> and in some cases it'd mean deportation. I completely understand the shittiness of this issue and I'm not from a developed country, but I mean, this is the reality of a temporary work visa, no? I might be more pessimist/realist, but until I receive a permanent residency visa, I'd treat everything as temporary, ready to move back in a couple days notice.

Well there are temporary work visas out there in various countries that are fixed-term, e.g. a visa holder is entitled to stay in the country for 2 years. If they lose their job they're still entitled to stay for the remainder of the term, and have plenty of time to find other work (which doesn't require any sponsorship). Examples of this include the J-1 visa in the US which is explicitly a 2-year inextensible cultural exchange visa that lets you work whatever job you want.

The thing that makes the H-1B and visas like it insecure is their being tied to employer sponsorship. I don't think that's inherently unfair - the whole point of the visa is to bring in skilled workers in valuable industries.

What I do think is shitty about the H-1B in particular is just how short the grace period is to find a new sponsor. 60 days is a tight schedule even for a skilled worker in a good market, and layoffs don't tend to happen in good markets. It definitely opens up visa holders to exploitation by employers, and temporary downturns can end up kicking out a lot of valuable people.

There are other countries with skilled worker visas with more generous grace periods - e.g. Ireland's Critical Skills Employment Permit allows you 6 months to find a new job if you're laid off. I don't see the problem with that if the visa holder can support themselves financially over that timeframe.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#172

Post by qaq »

edent wrote: post #2

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/

Well I worked in both EU(Ireland) and US for the same company on the same projects the comp difference is huge. So all the safety nets might buy you more peace of mind but pragmatically you are better off just having an extra rainy day fund from the portion of extra income you get in the US.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#173

Post by briffle »

CalRobert wrote: post #59
buro9 wrote: post #36

This bit at the end: > and learned an enormous amount about what it means to build and run a people-first company Seems at odds with this bit at the beginning: > And then it happened, I got the email. Slack didn't work. My laptop restarted and came back with accounts missing. It really, actually happened. And even though the writing seemed to be on the wall, I was still caught a bit off guard. This industry (not spec…

Auth0 was a much better place to work than Okta.

as a potential client, they were also night and day different. I had great sales conversations with Auth0, and they had so many easy to follow examples, tutorials, etc. Very helpful engineers on the call, who asked questions about our environments, etc.

A sales call with Okta just left me feeling dirty. It felt a lot like my sales calls when I was an Oracle customer. All about how many products they could push on us, no good technical explanations, and of course, huge pressure to 'sign this contract before the end of the month to get this great price'.

I wanted to go with Auth0, but then they got aquired, and we just said hell no.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#174

Post by estebank »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #165
jwr wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the employers pay, but you do not lose your healthcare immediately after being fired. The state provides it for you as part of the social security net. I don't know specifically about Germany or Denmark, but I suppose it's the same across the EU.

In France you can keep the insurance you used to have from the employer who fired you, but you'll have to pay for it out of pocket. I don't know whether you'll also keep the same price or if it'll be adjusted up (since you presumably don't benefit from whatever deal the employer managed to get). If you don't have this insurance (mutuelle), the State does provide the social security (it's provided either way, the mutu…

It's the same in the UK. But the interest difference with the IS I've noticed is the effect of price anchoring: because everyone has a provider of last resort, the private providers compete on features and price. IIRC my employer payed ~100gbp for Bupa, while my current employer in the US pays ten times that for my current provider.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#175

Post by dylan604 »

madsbuch wrote: post #92
sokoloff wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my second job, the company terminated an employee for poor performance and intended to let them stay on a short term to wrap things up and then start their severance. The first evening (or maybe the first Friday evening), that dev stayed late in the office and deleted the source trees from as many machines as he could get access to (this was 1996, so most machines didn't have logins) and wiped the hard drive on th…

Given that this is the US, he was probably sued and is still in prison. Also, this is an insanely childish way to act – again to the original commenter. It it seems like there is a difference in US an EU culture here.

> Given that this is the US, he was probably sued and is still in prison.

Like most things in life, it depends. You'd have to get a prosecutor to agree to accepting the case to bring charges against the individual. They'd have to decide if there was enough evidence, they'd have to decide if they thought they could convince a judge/jury, then they'd have to decide if it was even worth their time. In 1996, that might have been a more difficult thing to do than today.

> Also, this is an insanely childish way to act

Yeah? And? So? Are you attempting to say that no non-American has ever acted irrationally or childish? I have a few history books that would disagree

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#176

Post by cjbgkagh »

rglullis wrote: post #24
rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

Americans don't understand/trust/respect institutions. Because they don't trust institutions, if someone that is working for a company and does something bad, or is shown to be corrupt, it will affect the public perception of the company , not of the individual. Also, because Americans don't trust institutions, a lot of the internal processes and cultural values are upheld by the individuals, and how strongly this is…

Americans tend to be more extreme and very individualist. Very distrustful of organizations and institutions. Many of the early European settlers were escaping religious/state persecution as well as the powerful trade guilds that dominated life in Europe at the time. I think a lot of this comes from the German immigration to the US, Germans to me seem a lot more tribal than the English. Maybe due to Germany operating as a collection of tribes and UK as an expansionist empire. Could be beer hall culture vs pub culture. When visiting Germany it was notable how small groups of people who didn’t know each other barely interacted.

If I needed help burying a body I would only ask my American friends. Friends from most other countries wouldn’t help and just encourage me to turn myself in. Not that I’ve needed this help but if I needed to do something where it was us against the world I would pick Americans to join me. I found it more difficult to make friends with Americans, they tend to maintain far fewer friendships, but the few they do maintain are held more strongly.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#177

Post by allendoerfer »

rglullis wrote: post #164
madsbuch wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the case in much of EU also: In Germany most of the healthcare is covered by the employer. In Denmark, where I reside, you get an extra coverage with most (tech-)employments that provides access you wouldn't have otherwise.

> covered by the employer Only 50%, no? Also, in Germany the cost of insurance is tied to income. So I went from the bizarre situation where I went from paying ~500€ while employed to less than 200€ now that my business is not generating substantial revenue.

It is the bizarre idea of socialized healthcare, were all (publicly insured) Germans share the costs and pay according to their ability to do so, while even poor people (or founders like you) can afford to have all necessary procedures done without going bankrupt.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#178

Post by Vinnl »

Vinnl wrote: post #37
edent wrote: post #2

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/

Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)

Thanks for the answers everyone!

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#179

Post by dylan604 »

rglullis wrote: post #133
ianhawes wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lesson here is that once an employee or contractor is terminated, you remove all access to internal infrastructure. That's it. That is the lesson.

Then your company is still susceptible to being destroyed by any random employee.

Potentially, yes. Someone could go nutty before being dismissed, and it just be Tuesday. That's why there's things we often refer to in this industry as backups. If it is just a software bit of mischief, you should be able to recover from that without too much down time. s/disgruntled employee/ransom ware/ and it's really no different.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#180

Post by dylan604 »

coredog64 wrote: post #160
Draiken wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because the company hired a criminal sociopath, every other person laid off until the end of times must be treated the same way? Certainly there are better ways to handle even this crazy scenario you mentioned. That feels so inhumane to me. If you don't see your employees as humans, instead as mere resources and, as soon as they are laid off, threats, then we can say it makes sense.

I had a coworker who wasn’t even laid off and did something along these lines* on his last day because he felt hard done by. *Deleted the configuration from the core network switch.

So just a typical AWS us-east-1 employee then on a random day?
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