Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Matrix Trashfire

blog.koehntopp.info

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 217 posts

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#51

Post by master-lincoln »

Attrecomet wrote: post #40
master-lincoln wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agree, the author mainly complained about UX issues in the client, but then only tried one client it seems. Article should have been titled "The Element Trashfire" > my recommendation is to avoid Matrix for at least two years which seems arbitrary. Why wait 2 years and not one or just a couple months? The french administration is already using it now https://www.tchap.gouv.fr/ In federated protocols it's always harde…

The author tried the exactly one client that was available from element in the app store. Hard to fault him for that.

Well, they tried to use an open source ecosystem by finding an app in a store where devs need to pay to get their apps in. Maybe not the best combination

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#52

Post by IanCal »

crimsoneer wrote: post #37
IanCal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked. No it wouldn't. element.io -> get started gives this: > Get started. > Setup a self-hosted or cloud deployment, with powerful enterprise capabilities. edit - expanding. The element site is entirely about getting something for your business. It has a pricing page that tells me it'll be free for up to 200 users but I ha…

I mean, it's a commercial offering first. But "want to download the free app?" is right underneath it.

> But "want to download the free app?" is right underneath it.

To get started with element the app and create an account to chat you are saying I should not install one of their applications, instead I should

1. Go to the element site

2. Ignore all the talk about it being a product for teams

3. Still want to get started with not what the page is about, click on get started

4. Totally ignore what it tells me the page is for, because it's about setting up a server

5. Still want to download the application regardless

6. Scroll past all the CTAs and the form

7. Download the app

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#53

Post by prmoustache »

crimsoneer wrote: post #2

I mean, this is quite silly. Matrix is the open-source network infrastructure, Element is the client. Of course if you go to the Matrix web-page, it's not particularly user-friendly - if you expect to just use the thing, you should be going to Element. The ActivityPub page won't exactly help you sign up to Mastodon either. There are plenty of problems with Element and Matrix (I say that as someone who has been trying…

I think the core of the problem is the naming separation between the default client and default instance.

It is ok that matrix the protocol and matrix the server software have a different name than element. But the official server instance used by element should not be matrix.org but element.io because that is where you have to sign up and log in if you want to use the default official instance. Otherwise you redirect clueless end users to protocol papers and server administration docs.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#54

Post by hiq »

upofadown wrote: post #39
rglullis wrote: post #17

Ok, now do XMPP. Or Signal, but with the added requirement that you want to run your own server.

The big usability issue with Signal is that it has a dark pattern that leads to most users using it without verifying that they are actually talking to who they think they are talking to. If you do verify a particular contact's identity it involves comparing a 60 digit decimal number. The 7 emojis seen in the linked article are arguably better but a short decimal number would have been good too and would have elimina…

> If you do verify a particular contact's identity it involves comparing a 60 digit decimal number.

Why wouldn't you scan the QR code instead of doing that?

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#55

Post by solarkraft »

influencer3000 wrote: post #29

While it's never fun to receive negative feedback, it'll only help to improve the product. Still, I run Matrix servers since inception of the project (10 years now \o/), and for an experienced system administrator this is not something difficult to do. If you think running a Matrix server is difficult, you are probably not the intended audience: running an IRC server, an email server, or some other server, is mostly…

> Lastly I think comparing an open source project like Matrix/Element to Publicly traded corporations like Slack or Meta, is not fair.

If we want to "win" (reach similar/higher adoption), we need to at least come close. It's not easy work, but not doing it and leaving the product that so much good work has ready gone into unusable for a vast number of people would be a bummer.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#56

Post by INTPenis »

IanCal wrote: post #18

This kind of process is extremely valuable and should be done by devs more often. Start from the start and follow whatever your application tells you to do . Note down when it doesn't tell you where to go or what to do. You'd be surprised by just how many things you do automatically while working because you know the little tricks and things to get by, and that wording doesn't necessarily match what the app requires…

>This kind of process is extremely valuable and should be done by devs more often.

The fact that it's not being done doesn't bode well for their perceived engagement to this project.

I remember when it launched and how much they hyped it up to be the future of secure messaging. That was how many years ago now? It was pre-pandemic.

I'm a lover of all selfhostable federated solutions so I actually hosted a Matrix server for a couple of years. My conclusion is that it's just not ready for production scalability.

And you can't migrate easily between implementations because of their unique database design.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#57

Post by hannob »

dschuetz wrote: post #28

Can we please stop submitting click-baity titles?

I feel the "clickbait" accusation has a tendency to be overused.

I mean, when I hear "clickbait", I think "the headline makes me think there's something interesting that isn't really backed up by the content". But here? The headline says "Matrix Trashfire", the content delivers exactly that.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#58

Post by vallode »

IanCal wrote: post #18

This kind of process is extremely valuable and should be done by devs more often. Start from the start and follow whatever your application tells you to do . Note down when it doesn't tell you where to go or what to do. You'd be surprised by just how many things you do automatically while working because you know the little tricks and things to get by, and that wording doesn't necessarily match what the app requires…

QA is a massively underappreciated position. A QA person that knows when to automate, when to manually test, and how to report and file issues relevant to the project can save a significant proportion of hours on a project overall. I wish many more companies included budget for QA, it saves developers a lot of time.

A bit of a side-note: this sort of analysis is a great answer to "I want to contribute to open source, how?". Some fairly simple wins for significantly better user experience, and no coding required!

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#59

Post by skywhopper »

crimsoneer wrote: post #2

I mean, this is quite silly. Matrix is the open-source network infrastructure, Element is the client. Of course if you go to the Matrix web-page, it's not particularly user-friendly - if you expect to just use the thing, you should be going to Element. The ActivityPub page won't exactly help you sign up to Mastodon either. There are plenty of problems with Element and Matrix (I say that as someone who has been trying…

He did start with Element. He only went to matrix.org because there was no way to set up an account through the Element client.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#60

Post by rglullis »

rapsey wrote: post #30
rglullis wrote: post #17

Ok, now do XMPP. Or Signal, but with the added requirement that you want to run your own server.

i.e. moving the goalpost fallacy.

My goal is "let's have a communication protocol that is secure, enables applications with modern features on all major platforms and is not controlled by any single entity".

If not for the last point, I'd be using WhatsApp just fine. But because of it, Matrix/Element is currently the best we have. Is it great? Absolutely not, but it is the best we have at the moment, and to call it a "trashfire" without putting things in perspective is a disservice.

Post reply on HN