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The Matrix Trashfire

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Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#11

Post by crimsoneer »

skowalak wrote: post #8
crimsoneer wrote: post #2

I mean, this is quite silly. Matrix is the open-source network infrastructure, Element is the client. Of course if you go to the Matrix web-page, it's not particularly user-friendly - if you expect to just use the thing, you should be going to Element. The ActivityPub page won't exactly help you sign up to Mastodon either. There are plenty of problems with Element and Matrix (I say that as someone who has been trying…

I disagree. I have been using Matrix with Element as my main IM with my own homeserver for 3 years now, and the onboarding experience is just bad. You have to read so many texts which are spread across so many pages just to get stuff to work and even then sometimes it just won't. Sure, the author could have prevented some of their problems by reading the documentation, but Matrix is trying to become a solution everyo…

Honestly, on this I totally agree - hosting your own Element/Matrix instance is really unnecessarily painful, with the documentation all over the place. But hey, it's free and open-source.

But as as user, if you're even a little technical, downloading Element, registering and messaging your friends is really not the difficult bit.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#13

Post by Havoc »

crimsoneer wrote: post #2

I mean, this is quite silly. Matrix is the open-source network infrastructure, Element is the client. Of course if you go to the Matrix web-page, it's not particularly user-friendly - if you expect to just use the thing, you should be going to Element. The ActivityPub page won't exactly help you sign up to Mastodon either. There are plenty of problems with Element and Matrix (I say that as someone who has been trying…

Things like this are technically correct but irrelevant. If the average person can't figure out the UI & flow without getting frustrated then it's game over.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#14

Post by danpalmer »

I've never used Matrix, directly.

However I use Beeper all day every day, via their iOS, Android, and macOS clients. Beeper (not the iMessage app, but their previous and continuing multi-network app) is pretty great. I get one consistent UX across all chat networks I use. Sometimes the networks drop out, but rarely due to Beeper issues.

Beeper is essentially a Matrix homeserver, plus a bunch of hosted Matrix bridges, and as far as I can tell, that whole part of Beeper was a great technical decision. The Beeper clients started off as forks of the Element clients, and honestly they were a trashfire at the beginning, but Beeper have been quickly iterating and replacing parts, and they're now pretty solid. They're not yet WhatsApp quality UX, but they're approaching it.

I don't think the problem is Matrix.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#15

Post by bowsamic »

bhaney wrote: post #7

I tried to follow along with the author by going to the same pages and seeing the difference between what he should have done and what he actually did, and it convinced me that there's no way he was doing this in good faith (unless something has changed). I still can't figure out how he managed to get to some of the pages he described, when the thing that he said he wanted was clearly right on the page he said he was…

The fact that the official Matrix Mastodon account as well as the "Matrix Director of Program Development" agree with his assessment with the Mastodon account agreeing that it is a "trashfire" makes me sceptical of your suggestion that he was manufacturing these issues.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#16

Post by haltcatchfire »

We used Matrix for a couple of years at my company, but got kicked out from their managed hosting due to the new requirement of 50+ seats. The years we've been using it has been more of tolerating its flaws than a pleasant user experience. We migrated to Slack and was blown away of how It Just Works.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#18

Post by IanCal »

This kind of process is extremely valuable and should be done by devs more often. Start from the start and follow whatever your application tells you to do. Note down when it doesn't tell you where to go or what to do. You'd be surprised by just how many things you do automatically while working because you know the little tricks and things to get by, and that wording doesn't necessarily match what the app requires now.

Side note - this kind of this is why good QA people are awesome. They'll show you what users will actually do.

I'll add in something here. Element the app said they were logging into matrix.org.

matrix.org has a "try matrix". The first thing is it tells me to choose a client (this feels like a loop), then says to choose a server but also maybe I don't need to, then has a create account button.

The create account button takes me to a docs page. Which tells me to go to the element site, and then create an account with matrix.

So that's matrix -> use element -> element says to use matrix -> matrix says to use someone else, ok you can use us -> to use us go to element -> element says you're making an account with matrix.

edit - oh you can and should also do this with your dev process.

Create an empty folder, check out the repo and follow the readme. Do you actually get a running system for local dev? Can you successfully run the tests? If you are able to, do this on a clean machine (maybe load up a docker image and see if you can follow it in a truly clear system). Does it turn out it assumes you already have tool X installed because your developers already have it from another project? Do you actually need postgres running with a specific user with specific login details?

If you're like me you don't like writing docs, so this may actually just push you to add scripts that do the setup required.

To not sound sanctimonious about this every time I've done this with my own code I've found issues with the documentation.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#19

Post by frereubu »

bhaney wrote: post #7

I tried to follow along with the author by going to the same pages and seeing the difference between what he should have done and what he actually did, and it convinced me that there's no way he was doing this in good faith (unless something has changed). I still can't figure out how he managed to get to some of the pages he described, when the thing that he said he wanted was clearly right on the page he said he was…

People at Matrix responded - see the bottom of the article - so they may well have tidied things already up based on his feedback.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#20

Post by amarant »

Huh, I've been using element for a while now, and the only problem I've encountered is that quite few of my friends use it. I've joined a few communities based around common interests, and never really had any technical issues with anything.

I don't really recall much about the sign-up process at all, which I guess I would've if it was anywhere near as difficult as this guy claims...

I'm on android tho, while he uses iPhone, maybe that's the issue?

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