Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#431

Post by eesmith » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 8:47 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #314

jokoon wrote: post #309

The US never ceases to surprise me That's so medieval and backward for a country like that

If I'm not mistaken, we are the only country which has a founding document enshrining chattel slavery. Many of the issues in the USA stem from this, amendments notwithstanding - it's a stain on everything, arguments in the top legal court, the Supreme Court, frequently bring up the historicity so we are constantly enmeshed in very old and sometimes medieval thinking, i.e. recent abortion decision referenced many lega…

Which document? I can't find where the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation or the US Constitution enshrine chattel slavery. None mention slavery directly, eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_and_the_United_States_... says there are only indirect references.

Brazil's independence from Brazil was declared in 1822 and recognized in 1825. "Slavery was legitimated as a historical institution in the Brazilian Constitution of 1824 in the right to own property." says https://oxfordre.com/latinamericanhistory/display/10.1093/ac...

More specifically, just like the US Constitution does not mention slavery, https://constitutionalstudies.wisc.edu/index.php/cs/article/... writes:

"Given its Enlightenment inspiration and proclaimed liberal spirit the Brazilian Constitution of 1824 never explicitly employed the words slave or slavery. But it did implicitly recognize the slaveholding character of Brazilian society when it subtly confessed the inequality among men. To some extent it had to, for the far-reaching consequences of the slave-master relationship were too important to be fully ignored. The solution the constituent found was to borrow categories from Roman law.5 Article 6 of the Charta established that Brazilians were those born in Brazil, either ingenuous or freed. Ingenuous were those born free, while freed were those born slaves but manumitted (Ribas 1880, 49)." ..

It seems that "masters could revoke a granted manumission in case of ingratitude."

Brazil did not abolish slavery until 1888.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#432

Post by wahnfrieden » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 10:51 PM UTC

ludwigDual wrote: post #426

mjburgess wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be worthwhile to compete with a dairy cartel? Of all the things one can do with capital, why go to war with a cartel over relatively small margins? You're assuming also that the cartel is operating only "economically", not also, eg., bribing, blackmailing, (stealing, murdering, ...), ...potential competitors. Why not just invite any competitor into the cartel? Why not buy them out? Why not "make life dif…

> Why would it be worthwhile to compete with a dairy cartel? Of all the things one can do with capital, why go to war with a cartel over relatively small margins? It may not be in Ontario. In a free market (i.e. one that respects property rights) it would be worthwhile. To see why, let me take your objections one by one. Bribing competitors: The point of a cartel is to use force to prevent competition. Successful fir…

You don’t get strong property rights without strong state, the two go together hand in hand. You can concoct rules and regulations to control and prevent antisocial behavior and enforce a free market but that’s no solution itself to getting a state to do so without other dynamics coming with the state affecting that

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#433

Post by phpisthebest » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 12:03 AM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #427

phpisthebest wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% disagree, the coddling of the American mind is a huge problem and we continue to push out development in favor of these new age idea that "kids cant handle it" with the result that we now have an entire generation of Adult Children... Most college graduates likely could not pass a 8th grade exam from 100 years ago, the social cost of that is immense.

> the coddling of the American mind is a huge problem Yeah I thought that book sucked too > Most college graduates likely could not pass a 8th grade exam from 100 years ago I highly doubt it, though we have no way to prove this one way or another. Maybe there'd be some like dates that we haven't memorized in modern times because priorities have changed, or some outdated home ec or shop practices. Much more interestin…

So you deny that atleast in the US we have a huge Competence Crisis.. You ignore and deny the many many studies that show the IQ of the average graduate is dropping and dropping fast, you ignore the many many professors that have come out to state outright there is a plagiarism problem in most universities, and that administrators are forcing professors to pass students that should never be passed? You ignore the many many high schools that do not have a single student that pass standardized math and reading tests?

Yes there is "kids get off my lawn" but to just dismiss all of the data and problems as that is ignorant and dangerous

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#434

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 1:11 AM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #263

themaninthedark wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what would your response be if Putin said "I can't see Russia and Ukraine from space, I am just providing security support for my human neighbors"

Ones talking about asylum, you’re talking about bombing campaigns

The invasion of Ukraine started with Crimea, in which Russian forces were in either unmarked uniforms or without uniforms.

Parent was talking about how they can not "see" USA and Mexico from space, so the topic I am addressing is borders and the control of borders.

If we don't want to acknowledge borders when it comes to asylum seekers, how can we expect others to respect them when it is easier for them to ignore them.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#435

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 1:21 AM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #249

themaninthedark wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far does this human responsibility extend? I agree don't steal and let's prosecute those who do. What about those in Mexico that steal from the the people who are fleeing violence? Why stop there, how about we do something about the violent dangerous environment? Would you support military action in Mexico and South America to try and fix the problems?

How much do you understand about US state involvement with cartels? That’s a lot of optimism placed in bombs

I doubt that military action would resolve the issue, given the outcome of the USA's last couple actions.

But I also know that it will be something that get tried, probably more than once if the US thinks that it has a moral mandate to fix the problem in Mexico and South America as the parent was suggesting.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#436

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 7:10 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #396

avgcorrection wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m absolutely being sarcastic. The context is that the OP complained about one business colluding with others by way of informal no-hire lists for employees that don’t tolerate this wage theft. The response to that is to focus on how other businesses that don’t collude will get out-competed… And yeah I’m pretty sick of this framing. It’s an anecdote where employees are direct victims, and then the focus gets shifted…

> And yeah I’m pretty sick of this framing. It’s an anecdote where employees are direct victims, and then the focus gets shifted to hypothetical and indirect victims (businesses). No, the focus gets shifted to > We need to make sure that businesses that _do_ treat their employees well are able to succeed. And, to do that, we make sure that treating their employees well isn't turned into a penalty. We make sure that a…

[deleted]

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#437

Post by avgcorrection » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 7:16 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #396

avgcorrection wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m absolutely being sarcastic. The context is that the OP complained about one business colluding with others by way of informal no-hire lists for employees that don’t tolerate this wage theft. The response to that is to focus on how other businesses that don’t collude will get out-competed… And yeah I’m pretty sick of this framing. It’s an anecdote where employees are direct victims, and then the focus gets shifted…

> And yeah I’m pretty sick of this framing. It’s an anecdote where employees are direct victims, and then the focus gets shifted to hypothetical and indirect victims (businesses). No, the focus gets shifted to > We need to make sure that businesses that _do_ treat their employees well are able to succeed. And, to do that, we make sure that treating their employees well isn't turned into a penalty. We make sure that a…

Then nothing I say is gonna make you understand.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#438

Post by mcv » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 8:33 AM UTC

ludwigDual wrote: post #425

mcv wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of pirated Windows around, but everybody still has to use Windows. Linux got into the gaming market only by supporting the Windows apis, and that support is still not quite perfect. It's not copyright that monopolises software, but api support. The need to reverse engineer other people's work. A lack of open standards. There would be more competition possible in software if regulation mandated open sta…

> There's plenty of pirated Windows around, but everybody still has to use Windows. The threat of jail time for people sharing pirated copies or circumventing copyright protected measures changes the pros/cons people weigh whether or not some people copy or reverse engineer despite those risks. There would be a lot more competition if pirates weren't incurring all these additional risks and were able to compete fairl…

One thing that they have often done in the past, is to temporarily drop their prices to outcompete newcomers, making it impossible for newcomers to outcompete them, and raising their prices back up once the newcomer is gone. The established monopolists always have deeper pockets than the newcomers. I'd love to see how you stop that without regulation.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#439

Post by robertlagrant » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 8:47 AM UTC

alan-hn wrote: post #419

robertlagrant wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Committing.

Since I have to be explicit, I'm questioning the line of thinking that I'm responding to with my initial post in this thread. Perhaps you should go back and reread it.

You're not being explicit. Saying "Go and re-read the thing you wrote" isn't being explicit. Two messages later and you haven't really said anything, other than that you somehow disagree.

To be clear: where's the fallacy of the single cause in what I wrote earlier? It's clear in what you said: you misinterpreted my saying "desirable jobs pay less" as "jobs being desirable is the only cause of the market paying less for some jobs". A cause - from my message, vs the cause - the assumption in your response.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#440

Post by phpisthebest » Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 9:27 AM UTC

sixothree wrote: post #385

phpisthebest wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started working at 16, at a walmart. I only called sick a handful of times, never was late, and did my job to the best of my ability. it is called work ethic. I started at $0.25 above minimum wage, as we given several raises, and position changes by the time I left at age 18, why because I was one of the most reliable teens they had, and they did not want me to go to another employer. Some parents instill work ethi…

I don't see what you "having responsibility" has to do with taking advantage of children? Also I have to ask, and I mean this seriously. What did you do with the money from that job? Did it go into savings? Did you help with household bills?

Paid for my car. My insurance and anything in wanted that was not basic needs.

My parents provided shelter, basic food at home, and transport to school and official functions...

If I wanted anything beyond that like access to a car to go out with friends. Or to buy a new game.. or go to a party etc. I hade to fund that with my own money

My parents were terrible at personal finance. They were not savers nor did the schools teach me anything about saving.. investment or compound interest so I did not start any of those things until my late 20's.. I failure instill regret....

That said my parents never asked me to contribute to the household finances.. and now today as one of my parents has no retirement they now live with me and I do not ask them to contribute to the household finances...