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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

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Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This all feels very MCAS to me.

No? MCAS was necessary because Boeing made the plane aerodynamically unstable. They did so because of pressure to compete against superior Airbus offerings, and because a new airframe (the proper solution) would have been a huge undertaking and airlines wouldn't like it because they'd have to get pilots certified on the new airframe. Boeing then did not implement sufficient redundancy in the system, proper warning an…

Not sure why you’re talking about the deficiencies of the model sans radar throughout the thread, I haven’t noticed any degradation - on the contrary, the performance is better now than when the car was new a few years back. Do you have a statistically backed source for this, or is this based on media/hearsay?

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#222
post #28
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two were idiots, but this highlights the dangers of L2 driver assistance systems (misleadingly marketed as "Full Self Driving") that requires driver attention at all times to prevent accidents. It gives you a false sense of security and there's no guarantee you'll take over in time to prevent an accident. If you give dumb toys to people, they will use it in dumb ways. This is why Waymo/Google abandoned their dr…

Your contention is that having FSD the car makes accidents more likely because people will rely on it when they shouldn't be driving at all. So... does it? The statistics don't seem to bear that out. This is the first significant accident of that type we've seen, where there have been multiple "driver passed out and the car stopped on the road" incidents. Seems like the truth is the opposite, no? Tesla didn't invent…

There are no third party statistics since Tesla lawyers actively force NHTSA to redact information from any reports they do make.

Even ignoring the fact that Tesla habitually lies and acts in bad faith to consumers and investors alike, the “statistics” their marketing department publishes are worthless. They present no analysis, methodology, or even data to support it. It is literally just a conclusion. The level of scientific rigor they demonstrate is unfit to even grace the hallowed halls of a grade school science fair.

Even ignoring that, this is not the first significant incident. By Tesla’s own admission there were already ~30 known incidents a year ago at the beginning of 2023. Unfortunately, I can not tell you which ones specifically because they, you guessed it, demanded NHTSA redact which system was active from their public disclosures.

Even ignoring that, their reports are suspect in the first place. Of the over 1,000 crashes they admit to being involved in they did not report the injury severity in ~95% of cases. Of the ~5% of cases where they do report the injury severity a third party (news, official complaint, etc.) published that information which compels Tesla to report the same information under penalty of law.

Of the tens of confirmed fatalities, Tesla only discovered a single one on their own (as of 2023-09). Their telemetry systems, which are responsible for detecting 90+% of their reported incidents detected fewer than 40% of their reported fatal crashes. A full 30% of known fatalities were undetected by both telemetry and media and are only recorded due to customer complaints by surviving parties who knew the system was engaged. The amount of missing data is almost certainly staggering.

So no, the data does not bear it out since there is no credible positive safety data. And, as we all know, in a safety critical system we must assume the worst or people die. No data, no go.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#223
The issue is if you have FSD (beta) enabled and you attempt to yank it, TACC will still be engaged, which makes you drive straight. If they had lane assist on as well, it would essentially swing you back and forth. It's dangerous if you aren't aware of it since it suddenly goes from FSD to why does my car have a mind of it's own. If you ever see a Tesla on the highway frantically swinging back and forth, the driver is probably trying to disable the car and fighting with the other safety features. Hitting the brakes will ensure FSD/TACC gets disabled properly.

Note: Most of the time people are referring to FSD as FSD beta. Most videos you see online are FSD beta. FSD is still very dumb, but includes stop light awareness. FSD beta is what allows you to "self drive" in the city.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: participated in Tesla's IPO, own a Tesla. Tesla should be doing two things that would greatly reduce their liability while also keeping customers happy. Overall I think it wouldn't change the number of people buying into FSD anyway so there wouldn't be much downside for them. 1. Offer refunds for those for paid for FSD. Full refund until FSD has been enabled for a year and used more than N times, pro…

> Be clearer in their marketing and on the purchase page about the feature. Do you have any examples in mind of where this feature was billed confusingly? The product page and Model S purchase page both include clear disclaimers in both the first sentence or directly below the bulleted feature list. > Full Self Driving > Your vehicle will be able to drive itself almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention and wi…

The headline in large type says "Full Self-Driving Capability"

The normal-sized text says "Your car will be able to drive itself almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention and will continuously improve"

Only once you get to the small font do you get "The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

This is not a truly honest presentation of the feature. It starts by selling the end goal that may or may not be achieved at some undefined point in the future. Then in small print it says the current features don't actually make the car autonomous.

Honest presentation might be something with a headline like "Self-Driving Beta" and in normal text say "Access to current and all future updates as we work toward full self driving. Currently self-driving can navigate most conditions under human supervision. By purchasing self-driving now you automatically get all future improvements as we continuously work toward fully autonomous driving".

If it were up to me I'd also sell this as a perk for "investing" in the company: if you buy self-driving now transfer it to your next Tesla vehicle for free. That makes it a reward for paying $12k for a beta feature and more importantly eliminates any worries that actual full self driving won't arrive before you upgrade vehicles. It also encourages people to be repeat customers.

edit: It appears I was out of date. Tesla now allows you to transfer lifetime supercharging and/or FSD to a new Tesla for free so that's a nice perk and one they should lead with and commit to long-term.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably is illegal...

I agree. I just can't understand why the FTC hasn't done anything.

Because it's not profitable, and the FTC actually doesn't care when mega-billionaires break the law for profit.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>seems less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue. if the car is truly autonomous, then no, its failure of a life critical system if the car is not autonomous, then calling it "Full Self Driving" is a wilful misrepresentation of it's capability. To a normal person (no ignore the driver's employment history) full self drive, means that, it drives it's self, safely. You…

> Everyone is rightly chewing Boeing out for lax safety standards, but that door didn't kill anyone. The door was only part of the issue. 346 people died in a pair of crashes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302

You are indeed correct, I should have been more specific to exclude those disasters and scoped my comment to be about the recent near miss.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it really does. For example kinder eggs are illegal in the USA, because even though the small(ish) plastic parts are inside a plastic inedible case, too many kids ate the small plastic parts. Now, the vast majority of people eating kinder eggs, don't eat the toy. However because its reasonable that an unsupervised child would eat the plastic, they were banned. But. The point of FSD is that it is safe. If its safe…

The driver in question worked for Tesla and would be aware to not trust the marketing name of the feature. That's why it doesn't apply.

He should have known better to trust his life to tesla? you betcha.

Doesn't make tesla any less culpable.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The driver in question worked for Tesla and would be aware to not trust the marketing name of the feature. That's why it doesn't apply.

What? Why? The driver is also a target of marketing, as evidenced by the fact that they owned a Tesla. They aren't personally responsible for, or privy to, the lies of marketing. Employment at a corporation also doesn't grant you intimate knowledge of all parts of the corporate machine, in fact it might indicate that you are more susceptible to the corporate messaging.

This quote definitely indicates to me he was overly susceptible to the corporate messaging: “It was jerky, but we were like, that comes with the territory of” new technology, Bass said. “We knew the technology had to learn, and we were willing to be part of that.”

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#229
post #26

One thing I hate about Musk saying things like "They have fewer accidents than people" is that it is only able to be engaged in the easiest of scenarios. So per mile, self driving on the easiest roads barely has less accidents than a human in adverse conditions? That doesn't seem to actually be better than people yet.

Not defending Tesla or anything, but don’t we want to take the W where we can?

If a self-driving feature is safer than humans in nice conditions, don’t we want it enabled under those conditions? What’s the issue?

Of course, the risk is that it’s misapplied in worse conditions where it fares worse.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#230
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait. You are passing cyclists. Blinking serves two purposes: you are letting them know that you have noticed them (so they know you're not just going to plow right through them) and you are letting them know you are going to pass them (so they don't do stupid shit like decide to turn left at exactly this moment). If a car behind me, in the same lane, was passing me without blinking, I would highly suspect a dru…

I'm not sure how can a cyclist see your blinker - you are behind them when starting to overtake and looking back is not something cyclists do much (or more than once)...

I have no problems noticing lights and blinkers in my peripheral vision, or when they cast light onto objects ahead of me.
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