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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#81

Post by cptcobalt »

This is a sensationalized hit piece against Tesla Autopilot. It is definitely unfortunate the drunk employee operating the car was involved in a crash, that at least from the wp reporting sounds avoidable—Autopilot active or not. Any death is unfortunate, and an opportunity to improve vehicle safety.

Tesla's Q4 2023 stats should speak for themselves:

> In the 4th quarter, we recorded one crash for every 5.39 million miles driven in which drivers were using Autopilot technology. For drivers who were not using Autopilot technology, we recorded one crash for every 1.00 million miles driven. By comparison, the most recent data available from NHTSA and FHWA (from 2022) shows that in the United States there was an automobile crash approximately every 670,000 miles.

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

The stats are incredible, and—based on stats—Autopilot is safer than human-only driving. Don't be taken by sensation.

I personally feel safer driving while monitoring FSD, especially in unfamiliar driving situations, like new cities where I'm not 100% certain about the streets I'm navigating. If you speak to reasonable Tesla drivers who have experience using FSD, they'll undoubtably acknowledge the hiccups with Autopilot, but the data shows its improving over time.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#82

Post by cnity »

WirelessGigabit wrote: post #47

While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…

I have actually been in a car crash that was caused by the lane-assist feature in the Rivian R1S. It misread the proximity of the concrete K-rails on each side and jerked the steering wheel into the wrong lane. The correction of the driver to avoid (dangerously) switching lanes kicked the back of the car out at 75mph and we drifted, hitting one rail, bouncing off and hitting the other.

It was a violent enough collision to write off the car, but fortunately the construction of the vehicle saved us and nobody had any particularly severe injuries. I now am adamant about drivers not experimenting with those features while I am in the car because I don't trust them.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#83

Post by nickpinkston »

trbleclef wrote: post #62
WirelessGigabit wrote: post #47

While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…

This all feels very MCAS to me.

I drove one of these BMWs too and had the same thought. It seems like too far in the other direction.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#84

Post by eschneider »

fisherjeff wrote: post #45
bkandel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in a Tesla Uber, I found watching the front screen that shows where cars are around you frightening. Cars would frequently move around and change position unexpectedly and in a way that had nothing to do with actual car movements, lane markings would be totally off, etc. If that screen is at all representative of what FSD "thinks" is going on, I'm not at all surprised that there are lots of crashes when re…

YES. Thank you. I rode in a Model Y last year and just could not believe the mistakes it was making. Disappearing and reappearing cars; the semi in front of us was apparently straddling the lane line for a few miles; somehow an early-2000s Dodge Ram was classified as a small sedan – the list goes on, and this was only a ~10-minute ride. I would be absolutely mortified if a product of mine ended up in front of a custo…

I spent a decade working on commercial computer vision applications that, among other things, had to recognize and track cars. Those are exactly the sort of transient errors you'd expect to see in shipping products and they usually have heuristics to "smooth" over those sorts of problems.

That said, would I ever trust my life to a system like that? No.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#85

Post by psunavy03 »

timeon wrote: post #16
psunavy03 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Crazy that FSD is legal.

Why? You're supposed to be ready to take over. Marketing hype and a foolish name does not make the system inherently dangerous.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#86

Post by cnity »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #68
WirelessGigabit wrote: post #47

While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…

> If you don't turn on your turn signal and you weave to the left to pass them ...oh nice, the car scares you into remembering that you should always signal passing maneuver with your blinker! Another case where this system goes awry: in light drizzle, cars leave wet trails behind that shine and this system will mistake them for lane markings. I have to turn LTA off in such condition or it would steer me right off th…

There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though. There are also a lot of cases where a line ease off to the side in a turn-off that would guide the lane assisted vehicle off the road. Just do a google search for these kinds of cases. This technology is immature and dangerously fails in a lot of cases already.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#87

Post by judge2020 »

bkandel wrote: post #30
mdorazio wrote: post #6

As someone who works in the autonomous driving space, it is absolutely mind boggling to me how much blind faith Tesla fans put into FSD. When you compare it to any true L4 system it’s not even close and very unlikely to get close any time soon.

When I was in a Tesla Uber, I found watching the front screen that shows where cars are around you frightening. Cars would frequently move around and change position unexpectedly and in a way that had nothing to do with actual car movements, lane markings would be totally off, etc. If that screen is at all representative of what FSD "thinks" is going on, I'm not at all surprised that there are lots of crashes when re…

> If that screen is at all representative of what FSD "thinks" is going on, I'm not at all surprised that there are lots of crashes when relying on the system.

It has limited accuracy due to the poor processing power of the Intel Atom chips they used to put in the infotainment screen - they didn't even have anti-aliasing on the car models due to the poor processing power, they needed to make sure the rest of the infotainment experience remained snappy. (note this is not the same chip as what the FSD computer uses).

The "park assist" visuals[0] are closer to what the system actually knows about its surroundings from the cameras, but they're only enabled at low speeds for now (likely still due to processing power of the infotainment screen).

0: https://youtu.be/J5Tx3uEzz-g?si=AQRDcaukKQWrQ7-x

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#88

Post by bloopernova »

bkandel wrote: post #30
mdorazio wrote: post #6

As someone who works in the autonomous driving space, it is absolutely mind boggling to me how much blind faith Tesla fans put into FSD. When you compare it to any true L4 system it’s not even close and very unlikely to get close any time soon.

When I was in a Tesla Uber, I found watching the front screen that shows where cars are around you frightening. Cars would frequently move around and change position unexpectedly and in a way that had nothing to do with actual car movements, lane markings would be totally off, etc. If that screen is at all representative of what FSD "thinks" is going on, I'm not at all surprised that there are lots of crashes when re…

How on earth is it legal to sell a car with this sort of bug-riddled system attached?

That a car can disappear and reappear in the autopilot's knowledge of the world is really weird to me. I would have thought that each car would be tagged as an object that has physical attributes such as "can't teleport".

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#89

Post by basisword »

ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

It should be illegal for them to call it full self drive. It's 100% false advertising not to mention the 'danger' that people will assume it is what it says it is.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#90

Post by KaiserPro »

robertlagrant wrote: post #51
KaiserPro wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>seems less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue. if the car is truly autonomous, then no, its failure of a life critical system if the car is not autonomous, then calling it "Full Self Driving" is a wilful misrepresentation of it's capability. To a normal person (no ignore the driver's employment history) full self drive, means that, it drives it's self, safely. You…

> To a normal person (no ignore the driver's employment history) But in this case, which is what the previous comment is talking about, this doesn't apply.

No, it really does.

For example kinder eggs are illegal in the USA, because even though the small(ish) plastic parts are inside a plastic inedible case, too many kids ate the small plastic parts.

Now, the vast majority of people eating kinder eggs, don't eat the toy. However because its reasonable that an unsupervised child would eat the plastic, they were banned.

But.

The point of FSD is that it is safe. If its safe, a drunk person who is behind the wheel, shouldn't be able to cause it to crash, if the FSD is engaged. FSD should fail safe.

but it can't fail safe, it is not "full self drive" and should never have been marketed as such.

However, people's safety is supplemental to large corporation's feelings/profits/liability.

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