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Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

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Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#361
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patents were intended to protect the little-guy, the inventor (meaning a person), with an artificial monopoly so he could make money. they weren't intended to be used by huge companies to help further their already impressive monopolistic empires. they collect them and use them as a kind of insurance or mutual-assued-destruction policy. microsoft won't sue ibm (and so on) because both have such a vast portfolio of ga…

> it's obvious that the time and place for patents has come and gone This is a ridiculous (and incorrect) opinion being presented as fact, coupled with a lot of strawman arguments. The fact that the implementation of the patent system has been massively abused over the past few decades does in no way imply that the theory is flawed and that > just abandon the whole system. it literally helps nobody This entire commen…

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Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#362
post #349
post #42

Awesome job! Thank you cloudflare. maybe this is the path to kill the trolls. tech companies could fund an insurance-like mutual scheme to defend instead of pay off the trolls and then drive them out of business. it can also research and invalidate their ridiculous patents.

Just make sure the patent trolls don’t find a way to own their own patent troll insurance company.

ha! i think we need to patent the method and practice of patent troll insurance...

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#363
post #175

Nice to see Cloudflare fighting the good fight, but patent trolls aren’t the only issue with software patents. A major issue that people talk about way less is well funded/large companies getting bullshit patents, and using them to sue their small startup competitors into the ground. It doesn’t even matter if they win - when a company with billions in the bank sues a company with millions in the bank, the small compa…

I work at a large company. A colleague of mine filed a patent for a thing we were working on, and included me in the list of inventors.

I spent that summer trading emails with lawyers trying to get the application to even resemble what we were actually doing. The patent was for computer animation, and the application had fucking clip art of printers and pagers and 50 pages of "and this is novel because computers are shiny" and "if you figure out how to do this with a toaster, we've called dibs."

I'm proud of the work I was doing; we were legitimately working at the frontier of motion design. It's cool that my name is in the historical record for that, but it's also embarrassing that it's in the form of a software patent - particularly one that looked like it had been copy/pasted from decades of bullshit patents and barely adapted to cover what we were actually proposing.

Whatever little faith you have in the patent system will be even further eroded if you ever find yourself on the filing side of the patent. It shocked me how much of the application was broad and hand-wavey, citing irrelevant and obsolete technology to pad out the pages. Even worse, they didn't seem to care to understand the actual "invention." If I didn't fight back, they would have filed (and probably won) something that could have been generated with the prompt "please write me a generic patent application to pad out a tech company's portfolio."

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second the abolishment of patents. The reasons people are for/against patents are political. A rightist view would be that patents allow first-to-the-finish-line inventors to reap financial awards that lead to success and freedom. A leftist view would be that the opportunity cost of patents is an increased cost (analogous to a tax) on everyone else in the form of licensing fees and barred entry to markets as improv…

> A rightist view would be that patents allow first-to-the-finish-line inventors to reap financial awards that lead to success and freedom. A leftist view would be that the opportunity cost of patents is an increased cost Patents as originally formulated were to incentivize public disclosure of new techniques for building things. Portland cement is a great example: the company could have kept the formula secret and p…

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Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fifty years ago they paid for Xerox's PARC where WYSIWYG and GUI interfaces were first developed targeting a mass audience.

Right, I was so glad when those patents expired because the Xerox monopoly on my computer usage was annoying.

Specifically the Laser printer patents paid for PARC, and then some. As mentioned a few days ago by another commenter.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking whether the laws which allow this are within scope of the US Constitution's clause on intellectual property rights. There are plenty of laws which have been ruled unconstitutional. But it takes someone making the complaint to a court for this to happen. Otherwise the legislature does whatever it wants. Currently a majority of the US Supreme court thinks that the status quo at the time of the writing of the…

> I'm asking whether the laws which allow this are within scope of the US Constitution's clause on intellectual property rights. Which laws are those? I'm not sure why it wouldn't be in the scope of the constitutional grant of authority to congress. "by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries" The use of exclusive here makes perfect sense wi…

> What would be the purpose of the clause if authors/inventors couldn't sell their work?

Not that they can't sell their work, but that they can transfer their exclusive rights in such a manner that they themselves can no longer exercise those rights.

And laws which allow this are obviously, by definition of the words at the time, not "securing" those rights to the authors and inventors. You can't secure something to someone by allowing them to (both post-hoc and especially pre-hoc) permanently transfer those rights.

Especially the pre-hoc transmission of rights as seen in various contracts (work for hire, etcetera) completely flouts the "securing" basis of the constitutional IP clause in that under no circumstances whatsoever did the rights ever belong to the author/inventor. The Constitution did not grant congress the authority to make laws allowing intellectual property protections to a pre-hoc transfer, but only possibly to transfer in which the author/inventor first had exclusive rights. Therefore any contracts which automatically assign any rights to any creations to another party the moment those creations are created cannot be covered by intellectual property protection laws created pursuant to Article 1, section 8, clause 8 powers, but must have some other constitutional basis (possibly under the commerce clause?).

I guess you could get around this argument fairly easily by saying that the "limited time" is X number of years or until sold. But then I still don't understand under what authority the purchasing party gets these IP rights, as they are not the author or inventor, and thus not entitled to any securing of rights under this clause. If they do have rights it must be under either common law which pre-existed 1789, or under another section and clause of the Constitution, since this is not a 9th or 10th amendment issue. Congress can't just make law willy-nilly however it wants to, but must do so under one of its enumerated powers.

I guess another way around this, and possibly the way it is done in IP law (you would know better than I), is that these rights aren't literally sold to another, but instead a permanent licensing contract is signed in which the author/inventor grants use of their exclusive rights to the licensee to do with however they wish. In this way the "exclusive rights" would still be secured to the author/inventor, though exercised by the other party. This seems like sophistry, but much of the law is.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#367
post #336
post #175

Nice to see Cloudflare fighting the good fight, but patent trolls aren’t the only issue with software patents. A major issue that people talk about way less is well funded/large companies getting bullshit patents, and using them to sue their small startup competitors into the ground. It doesn’t even matter if they win - when a company with billions in the bank sues a company with millions in the bank, the small compa…

> patent trolls aren’t the only issue with software patents. A major issue that people talk about way less is well funded/large companies getting bullshit patents, and using them to sue their small startup competitors into the ground Those companies are patent trolls, not a separate issue. They don't stop being patent trolls just because they're large and well known.

There are two important differences. 1 Patent trolls are non practicing entities, ie they don’t produce anything other than lawsuits(pure rent seeking), big companies may not be producing on all of their patents, but they typically provide at least some societal value. 2 big companies aren’t typically making direct revenue from their patents, but rather use them as a moat to prevent challengers (which seems more similar to what patents are intended for even if it is often abused by being overly broad)

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#368
post #52
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myth of patents is that some inventor working in their garage comes up with a genius invention, patents it, and then can leverage that patent-granted period of exclusivity into a thriving business. Hard work and smarts translating directly into rewards! This is, of course, a myth. It's not impossible for that to happen, theoretically, but the way the patent system actually works these days is that large companies…

Board game rules fall under patents. It has an example of the garage process, patent, infringement, and win. https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2012/11/26/271633... > A company headed by a Colorado professor who invented a strategy board game has won a $1.6 million patent infringement verdict. > ... > Innovention prevailed in a patent infringement against MGA, Wal-Mart Stores and Toys R Us. A federal court in…

But Board Games are not software and there are other aspects of a game that can be IP protected (trademarks, etc)

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I'm hyperbolizing of course. But I remember seeing statements here and there that at least half the "cost" of a new drug is marketing. Commercials, paying for 'conferences' for doctors etc. Not going to search for citations, I'm sure you have something ready to prove me wrong and show how 95% of the cost is blood, sweat and tears.

The marketing is critical because they have a limited window of time within which to recoup most of the development costs. If adoption ramps up too slowly, the company will not make enough money to offset the investment. Marketing improves time to revenue for a product where exclusivity will be short-lived. If they didn't spend on marketing, the R&D wouldn't exist, so it is kind of weird to act like this is a waste o…

So most new medicine isn't useful? Or it would sell itself.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#370
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> patent trolls aren’t the only issue with software patents. A major issue that people talk about way less is well funded/large companies getting bullshit patents, and using them to sue their small startup competitors into the ground Those companies are patent trolls, not a separate issue. They don't stop being patent trolls just because they're large and well known.

There are two important differences. 1 Patent trolls are non practicing entities, ie they don’t produce anything other than lawsuits(pure rent seeking), big companies may not be producing on all of their patents, but they typically provide at least some societal value. 2 big companies aren’t typically making direct revenue from their patents, but rather use them as a moat to prevent challengers (which seems more simi…

> Patent trolls are non practicing entities

That's not a part of any commonly accepted definition of "patent troll" that I'm aware of, but of course NPEs can also be patent trolls.

> use them as a moat to prevent challengers

This is what makes one a patent troll.

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