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Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

theguardian.com

271–280 of 457 posts

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities, unlike building firms, have actual assets and are unlikely to claim bankruptcy. That means you could easily take the above issues to small claims court as long as you had them in writing (and remember, even a agreement to pay you via email usually suffices - no formal documents or signatures required)

...and then your career in academia is over, regardless of the official rules of retribution. Which, based on all of the bad experiences, might be a blessing in disguise for adjuncts (UK or otherwise!)

No, it's not like that. I write excoriating pieces in the Times Higher, completely damning the UK university system as "unfit for teaching and leaning" [0], and they still call me and ask "can you just cover this class?".

Amusing as that desperation is, in a way it's more terrifying how the machinery of blind capitalism works. The system isn't capable of sentiment like that. They don't care what I say. It's just business. They're not there keeping a score of 'friends' and 'enemies'.

Universities run on people like me who are of the "academic mindset", who can and will do things like teaching because we love it as a vocation even though the salary is a quarter or fifth of what is on offer privately.

In the end, the only solution is to say no, even when you'd really like to do it. It's a weird modern tragedy.

[0] https://cybershow.uk/blog/posts/cyber-education/

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very simplistic, and somewhat wrong First and foremost, states do not, and cannot "create free markets" the existence of a state to regulation a market makes is de-facto non-free This is also a very rose colored look at unions, while simultaneously demonizing businesses. In reality it is completely possible to have an exploitive union. At the end of the day, power corrupts, and the more power a person or grou…

err.. no, free markets are state constructions. By default, an unregulated market becomes non-free essentially immediately, as cartels form (indeed, as cartels of cartels form, hence states ). As Hobbes observed, in the state of nature there is no motivation to remain as an individual, so you form groups in order for self-protection. In an "anarchical market" you end up with incredible levels of monopolisation (etc.)…

FWIW, to bystanders without context for this area of study, the parent is basically the orthodox take on the role of the state in modern economies and “free markets”: in short, you can’t have one (certainly not a highly-productive one that makes life not-suck) that lasts for any length of time without a state, and the “shape” it takes and whom it serves and to what degree is meaningfully determined by same state.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#273
post #135

When it is actual theft why the owners/authors of said theft are not charged criminally? Why laws are asymmetric? When Hertz complains about car theft while there is none the renters are getting charged.

Refusing to pay your bills is treated the same for private persons, you just don't call that rent theft. Calling being late with a payment theft doesn't make it theft. I am very happy that I don't get treated like a criminal just because I forgot to pay a bill, I don't see why companies should be treated differently.

Again, we are not talking about "late checks" here. Say youre renting an apartment. It costs 3000 a month but you only pay 2500 a month. Is that ok? Should you be allowed to live in that apartment?

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

err.. no, free markets are state constructions. By default, an unregulated market becomes non-free essentially immediately, as cartels form (indeed, as cartels of cartels form, hence states ). As Hobbes observed, in the state of nature there is no motivation to remain as an individual, so you form groups in order for self-protection. In an "anarchical market" you end up with incredible levels of monopolisation (etc.)…

well now we will get in a Hobbes vs Locke, I am more Lockean I disagree, and history has shown that free markets absent government control doe not instantly become monopolized, and infact through out most of history monopolize form when the government regulates the most Look at todays market as an example, the most competition is present in markets where the government has the least influence, where markets like ener…

Markets do not instantly become monopolized, but they do tend that way, and will also eagerly form cartels unless stopped by regulation.

Of course it matters what kind of regulation; it's also possible to regulate markets in a way that protects monopolies, and some governments do that. So it's important to have a government that understands the importance of a free market.

To give you some examples, the Dutch markets for health insurance and energy are entirely privatised but heavily regulated, and quite competitive. It's easy to switch from one provider to another, and so they compete hard on price. Although perhaps more so in the early days after privatisation than more recently.

On the other hand, the market for software is not very regulated, it's heavily monopolised. Sometimes the EU makes moves to increase competition, but that's only piecemeal and not always terribly effective; Microsoft still rules the desktop, except in those areas where Apple now rules it.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least If you define being late with payments as theft, then I'd bet that rent theft is way larger than wage theft. I don't see why you would say that it is theft when you are late with payments to a worker but not theft when you are late with payments to a company. If being late with payments isn't theft, then "wage theft" isn't theft,…

Tell me youve never worked in service industry without telling me youve never worked in the service industries. This isnt "being late with payments" that is as you have correctly pointed out, not theft. "late" implies that eventually the wages are in fact paid. This is not what people are talking about when they are talking about wage theft.

Tell me you have never rented out without telling me you have never rented out something.

People refuse to pay rent all the time unless you start to threaten legal action over it. We call that late payment, but they would never pay unless you went after them, just like these companies.

> This isnt "being late with payments"

"Being late with payments" doesn't mean they are late, it means they haven't paid you yet. That is equivalent to wage theft, we just call it "late" to make it seem like a lesser evil, and "theft" when corporations do it to make it seem worse than it is.

Of course some companies will never pay and will take you to court over it, but I don't see why you should lump all of that into a giant number alongside the very benign cases.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

err.. no, free markets are state constructions. By default, an unregulated market becomes non-free essentially immediately, as cartels form (indeed, as cartels of cartels form, hence states ). As Hobbes observed, in the state of nature there is no motivation to remain as an individual, so you form groups in order for self-protection. In an "anarchical market" you end up with incredible levels of monopolisation (etc.)…

FWIW, to bystanders without context for this area of study, the parent is basically the orthodox take on the role of the state in modern economies and “free markets”: in short, you can’t have one (certainly not a highly-productive one that makes life not-suck) that lasts for any length of time without a state, and the “shape” it takes and whom it serves and to what degree is meaningfully determined by same state.

There is an irony that capitalism is claimed by the anarcho-libertarian lot. As capitalism is the most collectivised system in human history (consider, only, the scale of Microsoft) -- and also the most anti-capitalist system (ie., it forces capitalists to compete and hence dramatically diminishes their power relative to other systems).

Perhaps one day we might see capitalism as an "iterated socialism" (ie., socialism as thought about if you include time in your imagination).

And communism, libertarianism, anarchism, etc. as all products of a time-free form of reasoning where you can just pause the world and imagine that all people will "run the same program".

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unfair competition though, so it's really important that this doesn't happen. A restaurant that wants do to the right thing shouldn't have to worry about a few % worse competitiveness on wages because the asshat across the street has his staff work for free. The true crime is as always the impact on businesses.

> The true crime is as always the impact on businesses It's hard to tell if you meant this as sarcasm or not, but... it really is a big deal. If all your competitors are screwing their employees in order to increase their margins, that means they can out-compete your on price. Which means you can either screw _your_ employees.. or risk going out of business. And eventually, the only players left are the ones that are…

I’m absolutely being sarcastic.

The context is that the OP complained about one business colluding with others by way of informal no-hire lists for employees that don’t tolerate this wage theft. The response to that is to focus on how other businesses that don’t collude will get out-competed…

And yeah I’m pretty sick of this framing. It’s an anecdote where employees are direct victims, and then the focus gets shifted to hypothetical and indirect victims (businesses). Even in my own social democratic place of residence there seems to be dominant narrative of “job creators” and how we need to “create jobs”, the outcome of which is to sacrifice things in order to directly benefit businesses in order to (ostensibly, in rhetoric) benefit workers. This was concretely demonstrated when, during the pandemic, the right-wing government was very insistent on giving handouts to failing businesses that obviously were going to have a hard time (like the travel industry) under the guise of “protecting jobs”. Meanwhile, the government proposed that we should temporarily make it easier for employers to put employees on temporary leave (whatever the English/American term is) in order for them to not just die. Which is fine in itself… except they wanted tax payers and workers to dis-proportionally pay for this temporary measure. What’s the only thing that made them “change their minds”? Labor groups and other such organizations.

And then there was inflation, a predictable outcome of the spending-spree during the pandemic. So the central bank raised the rent. And again. And again. And the acknowledged consequence of that was that the poorest among us would struggle to make ends meet. But that’s not a problem at all—that a predictable outcome of a previous spending spree on businesses would impact regular people and make some people have to choose between mortgage/rent or food; not a problem. That’s just Economics.

What’s the problem with corrupt politicians? On one hand you can simply say that the problem is that corrupt politicians corrupt the political system. On the other hand you can frame it as the outing of corrupt politicians causes “political distrust” and a “crisis of legitimacy” among the (stupid) voters. So you re-frame the issue as a few bad apples (politicians) which causes the real problem of voters/regular people becoming (justifiably) cynical and distrustful of the whole system. That’s the power of framing.

And that’s why I don’t buy into the framing of helping businesses in order to (pinky swear) really helping workers. Yeah, those hand-out to businesses? Oh would you look at that—a “profit party” half a year later for the shareholders. Who woulda thunk it. But too bad about that inflation, though. Guess you should rethink owning a car or having hobbies other than taking walks in the park.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you've made no claims, only voiced vague notions of your distaste

I claim that the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system. That’s a claim, and it’s not vague. Also I didn’t voice distaste.

It's hard to interpret "We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority" as anything but distaste, just as it's hard to parse "the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system" as anything but a favorable verisimilitude. Whose capital? Construction contractors? Service industry bosses? How exactly are they favored? Clearly wage theft is a well-understood phenomenon, so wouldn't it be a greater indictment of the legal system backing the law than the system that rests on top of it? How is any of this unique to a capitalist system and prevented in, say, command economies?

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and then your career in academia is over, regardless of the official rules of retribution. Which, based on all of the bad experiences, might be a blessing in disguise for adjuncts (UK or otherwise!)

No, it's not like that. I write excoriating pieces in the Times Higher, completely damning the UK university system as "unfit for teaching and leaning" [0], and they still call me and ask "can you just cover this class?". Amusing as that desperation is, in a way it's more terrifying how the machinery of blind capitalism works. The system isn't capable of sentiment like that. They don't care what I say. It's just busi…

> Universities run on people like me who are of the "academic mindset", who can and will do things like teaching because we love it as a vocation even though the salary is a quarter or fifth of what is on offer privately.

Everything runs like this. Jobs people want will pay less than jobs people don't want.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's because the state is designed to protect capital and not its citizens. we can use the process of government to change that.

The government is run entirely by capitalists, so good luck with that.

yup. that's what needs to change first.
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