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Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#211

Post by lotsofpulp »

reaperman wrote: post #198
pixl97 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this entire you're working for $2 an hour and hoping to earn tips shit needs to end. >They want $7.25 for that hour. Regardless of the fact that the previous hour they took in $20 in tips. Good. It is the companies job to pay the minimum wage rate per hour regardless of weather customer come in or not. If the restaurant industry cannot survive this they have no legal right to slave wages to survive.

They do have a "legal" and ethical right federally in the USA (some smaller jurisdictions have stronger rules but that's not typical). But perhaps you mean to argue they shouldn't have a legal right, or don't have a "moral" right. I have worked restaurants and believe that minimum wage should be meted out on a per-hour basis because of the way the current system mis-aligns incentives. The restaurant owner is encourag…

> But currently this is NOT a legal requirement

It is in California, Oregon, and Washington. And probably a few other places in the US.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#212

Post by themaninthedark »

badcppdev wrote: post #138
vdaea wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a shame but I don't see how that's the US responsibility. This seems like a call for imperialism more than anything else. Let Mexico govern themselves please.

It's a human responsibility to not steal from someone whatever the circumstances. And a human responsibility to not exploit people running away from a violent dangerous environment. If you only care about people with a certain piece of paper then it says something about your total lack of ethics and human compassion.

How far does this human responsibility extend?

I agree don't steal and let's prosecute those who do. What about those in Mexico that steal from the the people who are fleeing violence?

Why stop there, how about we do something about the violent dangerous environment? Would you support military action in Mexico and South America to try and fix the problems?

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#213

Post by lotsofpulp »

crazygringo wrote: post #187
alkonaut wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there has ever been a case (I'm sure there has) where someone stole say a $20 from the register, because the manager owed them $20. And whether the fact they could prove the manager owed them money made any difference in the theft case.

No, that's not how it works. And thank goodness. In the same way, if you go to a restaurant and walk out without paying, but you've been there before and paid with a credit card, they're not allowed to go back and charge that credit card by the amount you stiffed them. If you want your money, you need to go through the courts. You can't just take money you're owed, no matter if there's a debt or not. Not until a cour…

This only makes sense if the courts/government are functioning properly and in a timely manner.

As the article points out, this is not the case, so the rational course of action is to do something else, as seen in less developed countries with lower societal trust.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#214

Post by avgcorrection »

BurningFrog wrote: post #201
mjburgess wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify this further: The employer is already a collective, "A business", and the hiring manager is operating with the full power of that collective in hiring/firing negotations. A union is a collective to balance power against the business (collective). A cartel is a collective of collectives (ie., a group of businesses) operating to defeat free market competition regulation, in this sense the cartel is balancing…

Unions are cartels of sellers of labor. If they're good or bad is another matter.

> If they're good or bad is another matter.

It’s pretty clear what you think though.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#215

Post by Jensson »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #126
avgcorrection wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not only would they fire you but they'd call up all their industry buddies and you'd basically be on every other restaurants no-hire list. So like a much-dreaded union for employers except it’s underhanded and illegal.

If you want to demonstrate to someone why the legal system is designed for the wealthy and not the common people, I don't think you can do better than the entire subject of wage theft. Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least, and it is practically legal in every way apart from the letter of the law. Few companies ever see any consequences at all, and the few that do, it's…

> Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least

If you define being late with payments as theft, then I'd bet that rent theft is way larger than wage theft. I don't see why you would say that it is theft when you are late with payments to a worker but not theft when you are late with payments to a company.

If being late with payments isn't theft, then "wage theft" isn't theft, just like you missing to pay your rent one month isn't theft.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#216

Post by amrocha »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #149
pierat wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, I worked at $retailer for a time, and even their statements were to "DO NOT ENGAGE SHOPLIFTERS". Worse yet, I can scarcely imagine some $12/hr being told to chase after shoplifters... That's gonna end up being shot or shivved. And frankly, there were times in which I saw people steal food. And in those cases, I never saw a thing! Especially when formula was being "acquired". One time, during Black Friday, someo…

You do realize that people who steal formula use it to cut drugs? https://city-attorney.columbus.gov/pdf/press/babyformulaband... There are a lot of organizations that give out formula for free but not at scale required for nefarious uses.

Look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you honestly believe drug dealers are stealing formula to cut drugs with rather than mom's just need to feed their babies

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#217

Post by uni_rule »

Jensson wrote: post #215
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to demonstrate to someone why the legal system is designed for the wealthy and not the common people, I don't think you can do better than the entire subject of wage theft. Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least, and it is practically legal in every way apart from the letter of the law. Few companies ever see any consequences at all, and the few that do, it's…

> Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least If you define being late with payments as theft, then I'd bet that rent theft is way larger than wage theft. I don't see why you would say that it is theft when you are late with payments to a worker but not theft when you are late with payments to a company. If being late with payments isn't theft, then "wage theft" isn't theft,…

"If this thing was an entirely different situation then the stakes would be different." Well, glad we got that part worked out.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#218

Post by jenny91 »

elzbardico wrote: post #3

The standard civil courts pipeline sucks as a mechanism for labor rights protection. You'll need expedited courts and a speedier process to dissuade this kind of thing. It needs to be as straightforward as child support law.

I actually think this is a great idea (though very hard to implement). We have special courts and systems for different things, it would be a great idea to have courts dedicated to just resolving employer-employee disputes.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#219

Post by Philorandroid »

vundercind wrote: post #205
Philorandroid wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's such a yellow-press non-answer. Annoyed interpretations of the name of something doesn't offer any insight into, or affect the reality of, the thing.

I think it’s interesting that the labeling and the observed behavior of the system really do match.

Again, you've made no claims, only voiced vague notions of your distaste

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#220

Post by phpisthebest »

mjburgess wrote: post #186
ncallaway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. And it’s underhanded and illegal when employers do it, because there’s an imbalance of power between employee and employee. Unions exist to even out that balance of power. When employers engage in that kind of activity it further increases the imbalance of power. For example, in this case, they were using that tactic to support their ability to steal from employees.

To clarify this further: The employer is already a collective, "A business", and the hiring manager is operating with the full power of that collective in hiring/firing negotations. A union is a collective to balance power against the business (collective). A cartel is a collective of collectives (ie., a group of businesses) operating to defeat free market competition regulation, in this sense the cartel is balancing…

This is very simplistic, and somewhat wrong

First and foremost, states do not, and cannot "create free markets" the existence of a state to regulation a market makes is de-facto non-free

This is also a very rose colored look at unions, while simultaneously demonizing businesses. In reality it is completely possible to have an exploitive union. At the end of the day, power corrupts, and the more power a person or group has over another person or group the more corrupting that power is.

Thus in a very large union you will likely see just as much employee abuse, as in a very large company.

The sweet spot has always as well always been in Medium sized organizations, or unions, above 300 employees, under 3000 employees. Anything larger or smaller and the risk of abuse and poor conditions go up considerably even if you are represented by a large union

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