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Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#191

Post by Philorandroid »

vundercind wrote: post #168
FpUser wrote: post #135

When it is actual theft why the owners/authors of said theft are not charged criminally? Why laws are asymmetric? When Hertz complains about car theft while there is none the renters are getting charged.

The answer is in the name of our economic system: Capital -ism. We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority.

That's such a yellow-press non-answer. Annoyed interpretations of the name of something doesn't offer any insight into, or affect the reality of, the thing.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#192

Post by droopyEyelids »

spamizbad wrote: post #9

This phenomena is pretty widespread in the service industry and I would venture to say that a significant minority of businesses participate in some version of wage theft. For example, one of my jobs right out of high school was waiting tables at a local restaurant. If you were opening, the expectation from owners and management was you'd get in early to help open but would wait 15 minutes before service started befo…

I also experienced wage theft while waiting tables, and also thought 'thats just how it works'

As a server, aside from taking orders and carrying food, we had 'sidework' before and after our shift- stuff like cutting lemons into wedges for water, rolling silverware in napkins, refilling condiments, etc. That all needed to be done before/after clocking in. Additionally, if diners stayed late, our timecards were edited to reflect the hours we 'should have' been working.

And the last thing that bugs me the most, is that we were required to give 10% of our tips to share with the back-of-house employees like bus boys. The manager collected this money directly and there was no accounting or way to see how much of it actually made its way to the other employees. That pisses me off the most because it was so arbitrary and so completely in the control of someone who was already stealing from us.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#193

Post by crazygringo »

anon291 wrote: post #128
teeray wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Courts generally take a dim view of “self help,” however just it may be.

Well they shouldn't. Legislators should make recovery on debt for employees be self-service just like normal debt recovery. Really there ought to be a pretty straightforwards system. You go to the local court showing your employment contract and proof of hours worked. Court contacts employer same day (could be automated phone system or e-mail) with X days to respond (ideally like 1 or 2). If no response, or no satisf…

I don't understand. This is what courts do, just not as fast.

If it were "self-service" as you suggest, it would be open to abuse of tons of people falsely claiming wage theft, to make an easy buck.

Companies can't be required to respond in 1 or 2 days. They need time to gather facts, especially when people can be out sick, busy with other work, etc. And they need to be able to present them to a judge and allow for cross-examination. Courts are designed to be fair and protect the rights of both sides, not to be fast.

Also I don't know what you mean about "normal debt recovery" being "self-service"? It isn't.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#194

Post by wahnfrieden »

crazygringo wrote: post #182
dbingham wrote: post #26

One of the clearest illustrations of the deeply injust structural power imbalance at the heart of our economic system is wage theft. If your employer withholds $20 from your paycheck it's a civil violation of contract law. You have to go through an extremely onerous and convoluted process that very likely won't go anywhere. If, in response, you decide to pay yourself by taking $20 from the till, that's criminal theft…

To be fair, it also works the other way -- If you withhold $20 from a bill payment, the worst that happens is collections. The company has to go through an extremely onerous and convoluted process that very likely won't go anywhere. If, in response, a company employee decides to settle the bill themselves by visiting your home and stealing $20 from your wallet, that's criminal theft. They will be arrested by the poli…

Because business owners and politicians working for the economy decide that. It’s fun to come up with rules that would fix imbalance but curious how you think such rules can happen without deeper (however achievable) changes to society predicating them outside current norms (eg voting and waiting; maybe organizing around getting more people to vote and wait with you)

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#195

Post by danaris »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #150
danaris wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not today . But if this year you vote for candidates who are more favorable to labor than the other candidates, and then you continue making that (part of) your strategy over the course of several elections, you can start to shift things. Especially if you can get other people on board with the movement. It's not like the current situation came about by chance or some cosmic inevitability: the right wing in Ame…

You would have happily voted for Hindenburg? Labor wins that we have today have come from coordinated labor movements across partisan lines, not from voting and waiting on service from politicians

I'm afraid I don't know offhand who Hindenburg is, nor even what country he was running in, but:

In the US, due to the winner-take-all, first-past-the-post voting system, if Hindenburg was running against a candidate in the general election who was even one step worse than he was, then yes, I would have voted for him. Even if his platform included kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies. (Because, remember, in this hypothetical, his opponent's platform includes, say, setting fire to puppies and kicking babies.) Any other choice, under the system we have here, is mathematically certain to increase the chance of the candidate I like least winning.

Voting is not saying "I like this person and agree with everything they say." It is saying "I think that, of the two choices on offer, this person is the most likely to move the county/state/country toward the situation I prefer."

It's not about whether the vote makes me happy. It's about whether it makes the world a marginally better place than the realistic alternatives.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#196

Post by londons_explore »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #75
MOARDONGZPLZ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a manual labor job when I was 16 that my parents wanted me to get to build some character. A night a week or so and one shift on the weekend. The need for labor was dependent on customer demand on a given day and weather and fluctuated greatly. Practice was so show up and wait around in the break room until it was busy enough that you were needed, and then people would be called in order of arrival. So some peo…

You think the construction industry is illegal. Wait till you hear about academia!! :) This is the life today for zero-hours, at-will employment in the university sector. As a visiting professor I've had universities ask me to deliver a semester course a year in advance, and call the week before to say they're not running it. At the very minimum a 12 week course takes 40 hours of preparation even if you're just refre…

Universities, unlike building firms, have actual assets and are unlikely to claim bankruptcy. That means you could easily take the above issues to small claims court as long as you had them in writing (and remember, even a agreement to pay you via email usually suffices - no formal documents or signatures required)

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#197

Post by TheCleric »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #126
avgcorrection wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not only would they fire you but they'd call up all their industry buddies and you'd basically be on every other restaurants no-hire list. So like a much-dreaded union for employers except it’s underhanded and illegal.

If you want to demonstrate to someone why the legal system is designed for the wealthy and not the common people, I don't think you can do better than the entire subject of wage theft. Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least, and it is practically legal in every way apart from the letter of the law. Few companies ever see any consequences at all, and the few that do, it's…

Exactly. How many hand wringing articles have we seen in the past few years about roving bands of shoplifters vs how many about wage theft?

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#198

Post by reaperman »

pixl97 wrote: post #178
bena wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is tangential, but part of the reason why I dislike talking to servers about the tipped minimum wage. Because it seems they deliberately don't want to understand the full context of the law. Or fully the type of work they are in. What you are describing is typically called "side work". Basically work that is not directly related to waiting a table. Folding napkins, putting up chairs, moving tables, etc. Even in…

No, this entire you're working for $2 an hour and hoping to earn tips shit needs to end. >They want $7.25 for that hour. Regardless of the fact that the previous hour they took in $20 in tips. Good. It is the companies job to pay the minimum wage rate per hour regardless of weather customer come in or not. If the restaurant industry cannot survive this they have no legal right to slave wages to survive.

They do have a "legal" and ethical right federally in the USA (some smaller jurisdictions have stronger rules but that's not typical). But perhaps you mean to argue they shouldn't have a legal right, or don't have a "moral" right. I have worked restaurants and believe that minimum wage should be meted out on a per-hour basis because of the way the current system mis-aligns incentives.

The restaurant owner is encouraged to keep the restaurant open much later than "profitable" hours because the cost of the additional late-night hours is only $2.13/hour per employee. So if even one table comes in during the 11PM to 1AM hours, that breaks even for the business. The business owner benefits from externalizing the true cost of staying open for those hours onto the employees. The workers end up working a lot of no-profit hours.

If they were making $7.25/hr then the incentives would be (more) aligned for them to keep working those hours.

But currently this is NOT a legal requirement. So your statement "they have no legal right to slave wages to survive" drips with hyperbole.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#199

Post by WillAdams »

lupire wrote: post #97
spamizbad wrote: post #9

This phenomena is pretty widespread in the service industry and I would venture to say that a significant minority of businesses participate in some version of wage theft. For example, one of my jobs right out of high school was waiting tables at a local restaurant. If you were opening, the expectation from owners and management was you'd get in early to help open but would wait 15 minutes before service started befo…

The "industry buddies" but seems like a Boogeyman meant to scare people.

Wait until it's automated:

https://marshallbrain.com/manna

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#200

Post by pixl97 »

lupire wrote: post #125
sneak wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any promises not made in writing and signed by both parties aren’t promises. None of these are theft, just poor business skills on the part of the employees. Get it in writing so you can sue later, or don’t ever count on it. It’s basic business skills.

Oral contracts are legally enforceable. Your claim is that any crime where the evidence is destroyed isn't a crime.

>Oral contracts are legally enforceable.

I once heard a judge say "An oral contract is worth the paper it is printed on".

It may be enforceable if there is a bunch of corroborating evidence that multiple people were told this and are willing to testify in court to that case. But you'll find, especially in right to work states, getting people to speak against the company is difficult.

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