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Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

centerforbuilding.org

181–190 of 215 posts

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not the kids. Your apartment isn't properly soundproofed for you to use as an office. You haven't described a problem for the families with children, you've described a problem for others (you) who are using the building in a way it wasn't designed for.

Kids yelling for extended periods of time isn't welcome in any shared living space, no matter how you square it.

Yet kids are required to keep the species going, so society needs to support their existence. Again, this isn't a problem for the kids; it's a problem for their neighbors who had an unrealistic expectation of living in a perfectly quiet place in an apartment building.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#182
post #136
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kitchen has a refrigerator smaller than the one my American best friend uses for beer It's possible that you can walk 5 min to get more beer while he has to drive 30 minutes?

Depends on where you are in America because alcohol regulations can vary wildly and some States have dry counties and/or these things I like to call socialist liquor stores, but where I’m at I can get bourbon hand-delivered to me via DoorDash.

I grew up in NH where the state runs all the liquor stores despite the “live free or die” motto and the libertarian politics. I guess I know what it like to shop in a government store like they used to have in the Soviet Union. Neighboring states hate it because, in a normal state, the store makes a profit and the state taxes it but in NH the state just takes all the money and passes the savings on to the consumer.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#183
post #157
post #44

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

>America is mostly suburban by choice. America is mostly suburban not by choice but because suburbanites voted to make it illegal for their neighbors to incrementally increase density. The entire argument is so fucked up in America because the nimbys keep framing it as fucking high-rise condos vs single-family homes... when throughout most of history, the obvious solution for housing shortages was just converting som…

If people moved to the suburbs, then voted to put rules in place to maintain the reasons they moved there in the first place, that’s choice. They chose to move to the suburbs. They chose to create those rules. If that’s what they want, and people come to town and try to turn it into something else, they’re going to have to keep moving, which they don’t want, so they vote to keep things the same.

People can choose how urban or suburban they want to be, by choosing a community that fits what they want. Don’t move to a cookie cutter suburban area expecting it to change to fit your desires. The current setup evolved over decades and won’t change over night, and it is the way it is, because people wanted it that way (at least at some point in time).

If people wanted to change the rules of the city, they’d put it on the ballot and vote. If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. This doesn’t mean people don’t have choice, it just means that if you want something different today, you need to choose somewhere else to live. The alternative is choosing to get involved in local government and working to change those rules, and getting the citizens on your side. That can be a long road, but someone fought to do that in the past.

There are a lot of reasons people may not want to live next to a bunch of rental units or low income housing. Call them names if you want, but forcing this on them is taking away their choice.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#184
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City life is fine when you're young or just have a very "busy" lifestyle. I myself didn't care for it much. When you have kids and they start growing up, you eventually long for them to experience a slower pace of life, spend long days exploring a forest that rarely sees children stomping through it, and just generally take in some relative peace and quiet. If you're fortunate and work hard (both are necessary), you…

The vast majority of suburbanites live nowhere near a 'forest'. Take Orange County, CA, or the Inland Empire. Suburb central... not a forest in sight. Meanwhile, I live in Inner Portland (like 1.5 miles from downtown) and my kids just went to an actual forest for their morning 'forest school'. Part of the problem with many American suburbs is that they're not dense enough, thus not leaving any room for nature. Portla…

[flagged]

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#185
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like an easyish solution would be to have some modular walls. Like imagine if you had a repeating layout like - [ 2br | studio | 2br ] where the | represent say a section of wall that is designed to be disassembled and removed. Then either 2br can be converted into a 3br by unbricking the doorway, so to speak. If neither 2br needs it it can be rented out on it's own as a studio. Or even take out BOTH walls and…

I think you run into challenges there with minimum square footage & window/egress requirements per bedroom. The bigger issue would be plumbing for bathrooms & kitchens.

I'm still thinking each "sub unit" would be the usual typical hall entry / window bedroom setup.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#186

> In other words, even if developers built more two-, three-, and four-bedroom apartments, you probably wouldn’t be able to afford one But almost most apartments are multi-bedroom??? I searched my area on Zillow for Apartments/Condos for rent. [1] Studio - 85 1 bed - 225 2 bed - 233 3 bed - 39 4 bed - 1 https://www.zillow.com/salt-lake-city-ut/rental-buildings/?s...

From your own numbers, I'm counting 310 with 1 bed or less, and 273 with 2 or more beds. Now, I'm not a math professor, but I do believe "most" means "more than half", and I also do believe that 310 is a bigger number than 273. I also wouldn't consider a 2-bedroom unit "family sized", since even a couple living without kids probably needs to use a bedroom as an office, study, or something else.

But he didn't say "most". He said "almost most". Most would be 292 or more, and 273 is arguably almost 292.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#187
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if that's wide-spread enough to claim "In Europe". I currently live in a flat in Barcelona (the European one) and two out of three bedrooms has at least one built-in closet in them.

Either you’re misunderstanding closet to mean a built-in wardrobe or… I don’t know what other explanation there could be. American closets (i.e: a whole room of 100+ square feet, dedicated to storage of clothes) just don’t exist in “normal” European flats/apartments/homes. You’d be an outlier if you have an American-style closet in Europe. Regardless of how much you’re spending, they just don’t exist in >95% of prope…

A 100+ square foot closet is a rarity in America. Most are between 5-15 in my experience.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids yelling for extended periods of time isn't welcome in any shared living space, no matter how you square it.

Kids yell for extended periods of time. Not all kids, but a large number of them do. If this is a problem it isn't with the kids. Demand better buildings.

Precisely. Architecture and construction can be improved, but kids are always going to yell. And unless you really believe kids have to live in detached housing, the answer is obvious - fix our environment to keep kids from annoying their neighbors.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#189
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>America is mostly suburban by choice. America is mostly suburban not by choice but because suburbanites voted to make it illegal for their neighbors to incrementally increase density. The entire argument is so fucked up in America because the nimbys keep framing it as fucking high-rise condos vs single-family homes... when throughout most of history, the obvious solution for housing shortages was just converting som…

If people moved to the suburbs, then voted to put rules in place to maintain the reasons they moved there in the first place, that’s choice. They chose to move to the suburbs. They chose to create those rules. If that’s what they want, and people come to town and try to turn it into something else, they’re going to have to keep moving, which they don’t want, so they vote to keep things the same. People can choose how…

> If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to.

My point is that this is happening. This is exactly what’s happening. In California and across the country, local control is exactly being overruled by state power, exactly because suburbs have created impenetrable legal requirements for anyone who does not already own a home to build one.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screams and laughter of joy, yes please! But, lots of parents today let their kids scream as if they're being fucking killed , like they're in some form of serious danger - for hours . When the "serious danger" is their sibling chasing them. Aside from being rude, this can be really disconcerting . Because, if you truly live in a community of people who care, some of your neighbors are stopping what they're doing for…

As a parent I can inform you that some kids are just that way. My kids are not in danger, but they still yell once in a while. It is NOT rude for kids to yell. It is rude to live in a building where kids yelling can distract you. The problem is the building though, not the people/kids inside.

You didn't read my comment thoroughly enough. I'll reiterate.

It is not rude for kids to yell and laugh while playing.

It is rude to let them keep screaming as if they're being hurt, in pain, or facing danger.

It is rude if they're screaming for hours.

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