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Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

centerforbuilding.org

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Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#91
post #18
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the...airbnb...for housing? Nobody tell him.

airbnb creates 0 new houses from what I know, so don't get your smug comment

None of those platforms build anything. Just lease out stuff people already constructed the infrastructure for. That’s what makes them scale, but it tienta translate to anything where you need massive per-transaction capital.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#92
post #3

> In other words, even if developers built more two-, three-, and four-bedroom apartments I'm confused. The overwhelming majority of apartments in my state are two and three bedroom ones.

Generally not the case in a lot of HCOL areas. For example in NYC, most new developments are built out something like this: 4 bedrooms - less than 5%, 3 bedrooms - 10%, 2 bedrooms - 30%, 1 bedrooms - 40%, studios - 15%. As a result, the larger units are not just more expensive due to square footage, but the pricing scales non-linearly per square foot because 3+ bedroom units are a rarity. Typically you'll see a 3BR h…

NYC also has some very interesting tax laws. I believe nowadays you get a 35 year tax reduction if your condo building is not in Manhattan, has under 30 units and has an average unit value of under $1 million (technically it's $65k of assessed value which is around 6% of market value). That translates to maybe a 1 or 2 bedroom on average nowadays.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#93
post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

> Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. Having travelled through several parts of Europe and Asia, I think a more general takeaway would be that everything in America is very big. Even if 4-bedroom apartments were plentiful, I suspect people would still be pushing to live in a house rather than an apartment. If the demand for large apartments isn't there, builders aren't very incentivized to build them.

How much of that is developers can't build an option so people don't know what they want?

As I noted elsewhere, I think the demand for 4 bedroom apartments is mostly to the poor right now - they want 4 bedrooms in the same space of a current 2 bedrooms - make each bedroom smaller and only 1 bathroom to share (or may a half bathroom for the second bathroom not a full one). The layout of a US 4 bedroom by nature ends up with a lot of wasted space in expensive closets (unless you get a corner unit - there cannot be many of these in a two staircase building but they would look more like Europe)

Though I have often asked what it would take to attract an upper middle class family to an inner-city apartment. They want large apartment - but it needs to be affordable (not downtown rents). But there is a lot else about inner city that needs to be fixed first (crime tends to be bad)

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#94
post #44

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

> People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

I'm skeptical of your claim. From what I read in social networks, newer generations of Americans don't even believe they will ever afford an apartment, let alone a detached house. I seriously doubt that there's a generation of choosing beggars who only accept living in a type of home they can't possibly even dream of affording.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#95
post #80
post #44

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

City life is fine when you're young or just have a very "busy" lifestyle. I myself didn't care for it much. When you have kids and they start growing up, you eventually long for them to experience a slower pace of life, spend long days exploring a forest that rarely sees children stomping through it, and just generally take in some relative peace and quiet. If you're fortunate and work hard (both are necessary), you…

Another factor for people who go suburban to raise families is that it's more affordable, at a time when they have a major expense.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Bobby Fijan, there's also Michael Elias, an architect, who has been trying to build family suitable apartments in the US after experiencing them in Germany. The problem really is the hallway cutting the building in half. It puts such restrictions on what can be built in sensible ways.

You could just put a staircase in the middle of the apartment and have two or three levels, no? That's how lots of homes are built, is there some reason reason why some apartments couldn't be like that as well.

Those are called townhomes.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#97
post #23
post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

>Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either. I would argue the other way, as a European, I've been to multiple places Asia and the Middle East and everything is either the same size or smaller than in Europe. I haven't been to Africa or the Americas, but I'd say from my perspective, that things in the US are just extra large.

When I (American) had an apartment in Wuhan, the fridge was not particularly small and our 3-bedroom apartment didn't feel cramped. The beds were hard, but normal size. The bathroom was a little weird — no separation of the shower — but not particularly small. There was a laundry machine but no oven.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#98
post #62
post #44

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

Why are apartments in the city so much more expensive then? Your opinion is contradicted by reality.

There's less space to build apartments in the city. So even if demand is lower, it could simply be that supply is lower still.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#99
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either. I would argue the other way, as a European, I've been to multiple places Asia and the Middle East and everything is either the same size or smaller than in Europe. I haven't been to Africa or the Americas, but I'd say from my perspective, that things in the US are just extra large.

There are many reasons behind this. It isn't just a fashion for bigger things. I chalk much of it up to differences in work culture. My European friends often talk about pickup up food on the way home from work, dropping in at a store to buy ingredients for dinner. I don't have time to shop like that. My food run is once a week. That means more food in a bigger fridge. They also go out to eat far more than we in Nort…

The subtext of your post points more toward food culture than work culture. I've noticed most Americans eat to fuel themselves. Europeans eat to enjoy food and as a reason to spend time with other people. Often, going to dinner with people in America and they're all done eating in 5 minutes... I've barely taken a few bites. Friends call me a "slow eater". Whereas in other countries, dinner can last a couple hours. It's not just about your work schedule, but about how you regard your free time and what your relationship is with food.

I've had some people use having children as an excuse for why they eat so fast, but I've seen people in Europe or Latin America take their young children to dinner and those kids behave and sit at the table and listen. Such a thing is almost unbelievable to American parents.

I blame puritanism for the lack of interest in food, sure; but the emphasis on excusing it with the pressing need to work is funny because it's like a defense of joylesssness.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#100
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to keep in mind is that in the US there are often things like setback restrictions and distance separation requirements such, so a small increase in square footage can be the difference between a building fitting on a lot, and not. You can of course buy more lots to combine but that takes more money, and more time, because you have to wait for a bunch of adjacent lot owners to sell.

> One thing to keep in mind is that in the US there are often things like setback restrictions and distance separation requirements such, so a small increase in square footage can be the difference between a building fitting on a lot, and not. Any country with urban planning and building codes imposes this sort of restrictions.

Some of those restrictions are worth having. Some are unreasonable. This is a debate worth having, but it cannot be done without going into details.
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