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Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

centerforbuilding.org

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Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#71

Post by aranchelk »

pwb25 wrote: post #10

basically everything I read about the USA housing market seems so weird, especially in SF/Silicon Valley. They makret themselves as being this "tech area" yet they have 100 year old houses with limits of 2 floors. or big suburbs without anything in them. Where is the uber, airbnb and doordash for housing?

If you're trying to understand the US housing market, do yourself a favor and don't start with the SF Bay Area - it's so twisted into political and ideological knots that the local branch of the Sierra Club fought against eco-friendly (i.e. relatively dense) housing, ostensibly to save a parking garage.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#72

Post by bluGill »

bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

In the famous book "the Wealth of the Nations", it points out that when people get more money they typically spend it on larger/better places to live. Just looking at the historical economy of US and the rest of the world post WWII it shouldn't be a surprise that people live in larger apartments in the US in general. Larger fridges are another luxury that I'd expect in the US as well.

However this article is about people who live in apartments - in the US that means either those without a family or poor.

Those without a family may want 3 bedrooms - either for offices (his and hers) or a guest bedroom, but cannot really see need for more than that. They also want them to be large and so are happy with the current state of things.

You would expect the poor to want to compromise on smaller fridges, and bedrooms - but many would prefer to have 4 tiny bedrooms (with only beds in them), and 1 bathroom, all in the space of a current US 2 bedroom apartment. They still dream of the larger bedrooms, fridges and the like - but they well know they cannot afford it.

Like you said, fire needs to be considered. Current codes are harming the poor, but it may be less harm than from allowing fire to kill them.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#73

Post by wolverine876 »

epistasis wrote: post #12
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

It's not just Bobby Fijan, there's also Michael Elias, an architect, who has been trying to build family suitable apartments in the US after experiencing them in Germany. The problem really is the hallway cutting the building in half. It puts such restrictions on what can be built in sensible ways.

You might mean Michael Eliason, who is part of the OP's organization:

https://www.centerforbuilding.org/our-team

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#74

Post by bluGill »

sandworm101 wrote: post #63
sspiff wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either. I would argue the other way, as a European, I've been to multiple places Asia and the Middle East and everything is either the same size or smaller than in Europe. I haven't been to Africa or the Americas, but I'd say from my perspective, that things in the US are just extra large.

There are many reasons behind this. It isn't just a fashion for bigger things. I chalk much of it up to differences in work culture. My European friends often talk about pickup up food on the way home from work, dropping in at a store to buy ingredients for dinner. I don't have time to shop like that. My food run is once a week. That means more food in a bigger fridge. They also go out to eat far more than we in Nort…

> Breakfast? I don't need to pay someone else to fry me an egg.

Yet in the US there are a lot of restaurants open for breakfast. Some of them are not open any other part of the day.

In short what is your personal culture and what is really US vs Europe? I think you are correct the in Europe people shop more often, but I'm not sure we eat out that much differently as a whole - people who eat out eat out a lot, while people who don't don't.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#75

Post by wolverine876 »

varjag wrote: post #32
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

Is this some old building? One egress on above ground floors is many decades since illegal to develop in EU harmonized bulding codes. The only exception I think if there are sprinkler points in the rooms. And TBH you can't really extrapolate your residence in one place to conditions in all of Europe, it is quite different.

> One egress on above ground floors is many decades since illegal to develop in EU harmonized bulding codes. The only exception I think if there are sprinkler points in the rooms.

I might be misunderstanding, but isn't the OP all about how Europe allows single-stairway and the US does not?

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#76

Post by lxgr »

sandworm101 wrote: post #63
sspiff wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either. I would argue the other way, as a European, I've been to multiple places Asia and the Middle East and everything is either the same size or smaller than in Europe. I haven't been to Africa or the Americas, but I'd say from my perspective, that things in the US are just extra large.

There are many reasons behind this. It isn't just a fashion for bigger things. I chalk much of it up to differences in work culture. My European friends often talk about pickup up food on the way home from work, dropping in at a store to buy ingredients for dinner. I don't have time to shop like that. My food run is once a week. That means more food in a bigger fridge. They also go out to eat far more than we in Nort…

> When work is busy I can easily go a month, sometimes months, without eating at sit-down restaurant. That is unheard of across much of Europe.

It's absolutely not. Doing one grocery run per week is entirely possible, and fresh food often doesn't last long beyond that anyway.

> Last time I was in Europe at a friend's place they asked where I wanted to go for breakfast. Breakfast? I don't need to pay someone else to fry me an egg.

You're generalizing from one experience in Europe to an entire continent. Going out for breakfast is very unusual in the places in Europe I've lived in. I don't doubt that it's common elsewhere, though. Personally, I've been to breakfast restaurants in the US much more often than in Europe.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#77

Post by fusslo »

I keep seeing these articles pop up.

The goal seems to be getting rid of regulations that hinder building European style apartments.

I can't help but wonder if this is really a trend people are interested in, OR is there some effort to sway public opinion into deregulating housing. Why do the article ALWAYS mention Europe? Is it a marketing tactic designed to trigger our 'america-europe inferiority complex'? Is it an effort to change laws to allow for larger ROI for a single piece of land?

Is it REALLY impossible to build apartments like we have in San Francisco these days? I am totally unconvinced removing these requirements would REALLY make life better for renters. As a renter who keeps getting shitter and shitter apartments, despite paying twice what I did in rent a decade ago.. I am afraid that this is just another effort to fuck us

Anyway, this is 100% a conspiracy theory (that I have 0 evidence for).

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#78

Post by detourdog »

bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

What makes it even more complicated is that in Massachusetts and I assume other states in Union use the International Building Code to dictate building codes.

This means that new construction and significant renovation all fall under the international building codes.

I think that the USA doesn't have the existing family sized apartment stock that the market might current be demanding. The other countries by having larger existing stock means more housing available at lower safety standards.

The final type of zoning that could effect is the style and use type zoning. I personally think that the style and use type zoning has a small part in our housing availability.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#79

Post by SoftTalker »

criddell wrote: post #59
epistasis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Bobby Fijan, there's also Michael Elias, an architect, who has been trying to build family suitable apartments in the US after experiencing them in Germany. The problem really is the hallway cutting the building in half. It puts such restrictions on what can be built in sensible ways.

You could just put a staircase in the middle of the apartment and have two or three levels, no? That's how lots of homes are built, is there some reason reason why some apartments couldn't be like that as well.

Yeah I've lived in and visited friends in "townhouse" apartments that are two or three stories, the bedrooms are upstairs and the living space and kitchen downstairs.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#80

Post by bityard »

tempsy wrote: post #44

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

City life is fine when you're young or just have a very "busy" lifestyle. I myself didn't care for it much. When you have kids and they start growing up, you eventually long for them to experience a slower pace of life, spend long days exploring a forest that rarely sees children stomping through it, and just generally take in some relative peace and quiet. If you're fortunate and work hard (both are necessary), you may be able to afford a few acres of trees that you can call your own and have a little bit of space to spread out in and enjoy before your short time on the planet nears its conclusion.

At least, that is my experience so far, YMMV.

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