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Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

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Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#51
post #40

Possibly I'm an old fart about this (though I'm not really that old) but I'd discourage anyone from dropping out absent remarkable circumstances. Here's the thing: Personally, as an employer, hiring manager and co-worker not having a degree in and of itself doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Specifically, I've hired people with professional-level jobs--the kind you usually "need" a degree for--with little regard for whe…

>"I founded this web-based start-up. We did OK." isn't remarkable enough.

There is no "remarkable enough" hurdle. Anyone who has real world experience has demonstrated far more ability than a degree shows. At best a degree shows some potential theoretical knowledge that someone who didn't go to school might lack.

But you started a business that did ok? That is two orders of magnitude more difficult and compelling than an undergraduate degree.

>But you need a truly remarkable accomplishment to reach that state.

No you don't. The reality is this- once you have a couple years experience on your resume, all any employer (worth a damn) cares about is that experience. Because they know college is really irrelevant to your performance as an employee. You spend 2 years writing Rails Apps and you're applying for a rails position, they're going to talk to you about rails apps, not which frat you pledged. IF you're applying for a C++ position, then they're going to want to know about your C++ knowledge, and that rails app experience shows professional work at a place that kept you around. Those 2 years of work experience (what you could have by the time your friends are sophomores) is far more valuable than 4 years of college, to a prospective employer.

>HR departments when they are deciding whether or not you meet the base requirements of the position, or what pay you should receive.

Dealt with many of these over decades, was never an issue. In fact, since most of the jobs I applied to in my career involved sending my resume to recruiters or HR departments and others clueless about engineering, you'd think that there being no degree on my resume would have been a factor. But it never was. I always- from the early 1990s to the late 2000s when I stopped deigning to work for others-- had far more interest than I could even interview at. They don't even notice you don't have a degree if you've got a couple years of experience. Maybe at government they have rules that require a degree to get a raise but you don't want to work for incompetent organizations like that anyway.

This is the reality: Screeners DON'T EVEN NOTICE YOU DON'T HAVE A DEGREE. You could call them up and say "does one need a college degree for this job?" and they'd naturally say "yes" because they wasted 4 years and 4 tones of money getting one. I always sent my resumes to jobs without regard to whether they required a degree or not. They didn't care. They just put that degree requirement there to screen out the people with no experience. Many times now they put "or equivalent experience."

The market reality is this-- four years of employment experience is more valuable than a 4 year degree.

>Supervisors and middle/upper management as they consider which employees are likely retention/flight risks

This is silly. This is just a prejudice. Hey your first year out of college I had 3 years of employment, obviously showing more time on a job than you had, so obviously less of a "flight risk". Plus if you did think someone might leave, that wouldn't be a reason to not give them a raise, that would be a reason to INCENTIVIZE them to stay!

>I've seen really good and smart and (largely) productive people get shafted over the long haul... These issues come up for at least the first 15-20 years of one's career, in my experience.

If you do happen to be at a stupid company that discriminates against employees in this fashion, rather than promotes based on performance and ability, then it is fairly easy to get a much better salary by switching to another company. And this is only a factor the first couple years out anyway.

>Having a degree, if nothing else, demonstrates a certain amount of "stick-to-itiveness".

No, it demonstrates conventional thinking. Four years of actual work experience demonstrates the same commitment, but also far more professionalism and useful training than a degree.

>I'd guess that most people forced to make a a hiring or investment decision would at least pause to consider why candidate dwong didn't complete a degree program.

You'd guess wrong. They care more about what you've done in the real world. Work experience is far more compelling than the college bubble.

>There is also value in the college experience and liberal arts education

Its a negative value in my experience. College graduates seem to be more likely to believe without thinking about things, to be unable to accept evidence to the contrary and to be more susceptible to ideology. Its like they are taught to reject science.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#52
Another point: Degree inflation. College has become so prominent and watered down that almost everyone has a degree, and thus having a degree itself has a lot less meaning than it did in the past. This does mean there are more half educated prejudiced people who might discriminate against you because you don't have a degree, but that works as a filter to keep you out of organizations that are destructive to your life.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#53
post #48

Notice how the advocates of college are not selling the education you get from it and the skills so much as trying to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt in you? This actually works as a filter- those who think for themselves will not fall for this and will end up leading companies and being very successful. Those who are highly influenced and controlled by the opinions of others, however, will worry about this, and…

Woah man, you've really got some deep problem with college - you've written half a book on this page. Step out of the black-and-white world where college = follower and dropout = leader. It's perfectly possible to go to college and not be a "coasting weak success." For many people, college is a good experience. An experience worth 100k in debt? Probably not, but that's an extreme example. Maybe college wasn't for you…

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Part of the reason I have written at such length is that the quality of the arguments for the other position are so very, very poor. And oft repeated.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#54

I'm one of the ones who decided not to go to college to begin with. I think I'm just a lucky person because I've had a lot of great opportunities the past year. It's now almost a year later from when I graduated high school. I got experience right out of high school with a big startup in DC. From there I struggled a little bit and found a little gig to last me a little while. Meanwhile I got to fly to San Francisco (…

So you'll have 5 years experience by the time you're 22. Probably be perfectly set up to do your own startup. If its a success, then you're made. If its a failure, you're still a lot better off than the people who just graduated from college. You'll certainly know a lot more about a lot more subjects.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#55
post #32

I can't tell you whether staying in school right now is a good idea for you or not, but maybe my story will give you an interesting case study. I went to Columbia straight out of high school in 1994. My birthday is in October so when i started i was 17. In my first year i had to take a lot of required courses that i wasn't that interested in and my grades were not very good. My dad liked to complain to me about the c…

Interesting. I would compare experiences, because I too left a job in 2001 (startup was downsizing after acquisition and they made really generous offers for people to voluntarily leave)... but I wasn't looking for work, I was using my severance to start a startup during that period.

I figured "well, we just had a big bubble crash, so there will be lots of engineers to hire and lots of cheaper office space and everything will be better starting a company in 2001 than in 1999!"

I was right, too, but wasn't quite able to capitalize on it.

I did have one experience where I was having trouble finding a job for a couple months, but for me, it was because I believed the "you need a degree" claims and wasn't applying for anything that said you needed a degree. I was applying for things that I was overqualified for, as a result, and they weren't interested in talking to me because I was overqualified. Then I just started to apply for the best jobs I could that I knew I could do- whether I had what they wanted or not-- and that turned out much better.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#56
Lots of great responses here but I wanted to add mine since this is something all of us non-degree'ers reflect on a lot. There's the first insight - it comes up a lot over the years.

I didn't exactly drop out but I got a summer job between high school and my first semester and by the first day of classes I'd agreed to move across the country with the company that'd hired me. That was about fifteen years ago. I've accumulated a few college credits here and there since then and even took a full course load of (online, community college) classes for a semester, definitely nowhere near a degree though.

I've been everything from a low-level developer to an upper middle manager (as well as a co-founder) at small startups, mid-range enterprises and one Fortune 50 and what I've figured out at this point is that my lack of a degree can and will hold me back at times, but it frames my experience and motivations in ways that help me explain and even justify who I am in the world. (Nobody special - but it's my choice!)

The biggest negative impact, as many people have mentioned here, is the HR/Bschool-driven hiring process that virtually any established company has. Your resume will be algorithmically removed from generic candidate-pool searches. Your salary range will be capped lower than other people's. You may be offered a position, you may even work at a position for a goodly amount of time, and at some point your lack of "credentials" may cost you salary or even your position, either by way of an acquirer opting not to hire you on, or your position being eliminated and the only remaining positions requiring credentials you do not have.

So you're working harder to find jobs, getting paid less once you find them, you have no alumni network to milk, and if you know how to market these facts (to yourself as well as others) you've got a pretty good story about your dedication to your career, or your family, or whatever it was and is that keeps you from pursuing a degree. That's how I comfort myself at least.

My story is a pretty easy sell generally as far as interview discussions go - I ran a consulting company in high school that was by no means wildly successful but kept me busy when I wanted to be, the startup I took that summer job with seemed like a fun laid back place to get a little more experience before school started, and things just naturally took off for the company... that eventually was acquired, its acquirer went bankrupt, got bought a few more times, and its husk is still around somewhere. I was one of the first people laid off when the bankruptcy was announced. I was one of the youngest employees, I didn't contribute as much as my (slightly) older, (slightly) more experienced, (slightly) more tenured teammates. It was a good decision, whether that's what lead to it or not - both for me and for the company. The people I worked with there are amazing, they've gone on to do amazing things since then, and not a day goes by I'm not grateful for having gotten to work with them. Mad props to jeffiel, thuddwhir, beans and that whole crew for being my "college" experience.

The good news? I feel that way about every single team I've worked with since then. I've worked with amazing people, all of whom I chose to work for because I liked them and what they were doing, not because I felt like I needed the job or that it was the right career move. At some level they all took a chance on me no matter whether I came to them as an a bright-eyed kid or a battle-hardened street fighter. I'm always conscious of that, and I feel it serves me well in making the kind of connections that suit me personally.

The really good news though? No matter what you tell yourself it's never too late to go back and get a degree. The value may diminish over the years but at any point along the road, even if you have to go completely bankrupt and shed a lot of the responsibility you become used to, you can go back to school and leap back into the workforce if you choose.

Or better yet.. Not jump back into the workforce! There's really nothing better in life than making your own success without a care in the world for what other people think of you, your credentials, your history, whatever. Your success is ultimately your own to make. If a degree gives you the kick-start you need, great. If not - school will be there if you ever want it.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#58

I'm one of the ones who decided not to go to college to begin with. I think I'm just a lucky person because I've had a lot of great opportunities the past year. It's now almost a year later from when I graduated high school. I got experience right out of high school with a big startup in DC. From there I struggled a little bit and found a little gig to last me a little while. Meanwhile I got to fly to San Francisco (…

I am actually really curious to know more details about what you do. For example: 1) Are you a developer? If so, do you ever find yourself missing the knowledge about low-level computer science? Let's say, how operating systems and filesystems are built under the covers, the internals of database systems, various algorithms that help solve problems quicker, etc. Do you see yourself working on problems that require th…

>If so, do you ever find yourself missing the knowledge about low-level computer science? Let's say, how operating systems and filesystems are built under the covers, the internals of database systems, various algorithms that help solve problems quicker, etc.

You seem to be assuming that someone who hasn't gotten a college degree doesn't have this knowledge. I've spent a fair bit of time over the past 4 years reading hacker news. I'd say the demographic of the hacker news commentator is generally a few years out of college. At that age, I knew more about how operating systems and filesystems worked, the internals of databases, and had a bigger collection of algorithms to draw on than the average hacker news commentator does.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who get CS degrees who never programmed a computer before college, and so, for them it is like a profession that they chose, and all their knowledge comes from college. For them, it probably seems baffling that someone right out of high school might get a CS job because they wouldn't know anything, right?

This isn't the case for hackers. Hackers started hacking as soon as they were told what software (or hardware) was and that there was some mechanism that made it work.

Designers don't learn about UX in school (I don't think, maybe I'm wrong).

Part of the reason college doesn't do so well is its serving some imagined "noble" ideal of what people should learn, rather than teaching practical knowledge.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#59
post #34

A company advertises a job. They'll list some criteria in the advert. They'll have a minimum wage secretary opening all the applications, and any that don't meet the minimum requirements go straight into the "reject" pile. Unless you have a name of someone else inside the company to get over that initial hurdle.

This has never been the case in my experience. Maybe this is the case for entry level jobs. Resumes go to recruiters who don't bother to look for the degree and are much more interested in the work experience, who forward you to a hiring manager.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#60

While you are in your prime "coding years", it doesn't matter. The problem with dropping out won't hit you until you hit the middle age inflection point: Go into management or career change or jump to a start up. Your competition that started with a B.S. at the same age or even a few years later probably didn't stand still and now have Master's degrees or MBAs. That's what you'd be up against. With the slow job marke…

If they got Masters or MBAs then they are even further behind and have even more to unlearn before they can be productive.

Those people are earning less and are 4-6 years behind you on the advancement curve.

The slope of that curve depends on your ability and dedication, not a piece of paper.

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