Live data from Hacker News

Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

news.ycombinator.com

41–50 of 80 posts

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#41
I'm not to 30 or 40 yet so I may not be your target audience here but I can comment on how it has affected me thus far and what I usually tell people about making this choice when it comes down to it.

I dropped out at 20 as a Junior in college. I had scholarships to school and every reason to stay but I was already working long hours on a business I had started as a Freshman and had no intention of slowing down.

We were growing, by my nineteenth birthday we had 13 employees and by my 20th I got my first acquistion offer.

I decided to take one of those offers and as a condition of it had to consult for the company I had just sold to for a while(turned out to only be 8 months).

So I made the decision to drop out and pursue this opportunity.

There are days when I regret leaving school for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I never really got to be a kid or act like my fellow classmates, however NONE of the reasons I regretted it has to do with not being about to find work I like or chase my dreams.

I recently went through the Winter 2012 YCombinator class(and subsequently left the company as well) Then was picked up by a well known company in the ruby community almost instantly and have continued to be able to find work at levels which I cannot handle.

I run a boutique consulting firm and have for quite a while. I usually do one or two projects a year that amount to anywhere from &125k-$300k. I almost always turn a few projects a year down and rarely do I ever get bored or have nothing to work on.

I think the major difference between the people disappointed they dropped out and the ones that aren't is motivation.

It does not matter how bad you want something you still have to work for it.

The people who sit with their hands on their asses and complain they did not get things handed to them get no sympathy from me.

I grew up the absolute epitome of middle class and have fought my way out of there. I make no apologies for my mistakes and I rarely give up on anything. I think its fair to say most peoples successes or failures lie solely on themselves.

EDIT: I noticed I never said my age(I'm 25)

and also when friends of mine or people who know my story ask me about dropping out or say they are considering it, I almost always tell them DON'T DO IT!

I think there is a place and a special set of circumstances for dropping out, but its not for everyone and certainly not everyone who goes that path is as fortunate as I am, much less as fortunate as Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#42
post #16
post #4

If you're an engineer, and you drop out and you work for 4-6 years, nobody is ever going to care, or probably know, that you don't have a degree. My personal experience was that I got a hell of a good job when looking for a summer job, and I just kept at it. I'm in my 40s now, and in my career, not having a degree has NEVER been the slightest problem. I was in such demand that I started limiting how many interviews I…

"I think its wrong of people who do discriminate against those who don't have a degree-- engineering is about having the skills and the mind." there are certain areas of software engineering where a real understanding of the subject takes years of focused study. for example, understanding encryption requires graduate level math courses to even read some of the standards produced or understand how the algorithms work.…

>there are certain areas of software engineering where a real understanding of the subject takes years of focused study.

Not many, and people who go into these areas spend those years doing that concentrated study as part of their job. The distributed systems work I did years ago for a startup made me one of 12 people in the world with that level of understanding at the time... now years later when distributed systems are "all the rage" every kid coming out of college thinks they know what they're doing but doesn't actually understand it.

>i'm 99% certain the only training left in the world

You're completely wrong. College doesn't even get close to teaching the state of the art. Graduate level can get close to the state of the art in a very narrow area, when you're working on your PhD, and sometimes this is highly relevant to the profession but often it isn't.

>software engineering is an odd exception to the rule that most jobs require credentials.

Most jobs require credentials for the same reason that most hats haze initiates, and once initiated those very same people are eager to engage in the hazing. It has nothing to do with ability, it is simply a mark of having an experience. The reality is, if you jump into a startup and spend those four years building a business, you'll have far more knowledge than you would get obtaining that credential.

>but there are areas of software engineering where self-training is impossible that are absolutely necessary when creating certain products.

I've hear this lots of times but never really any good examples. And in my experience, people with college degrees do not have the level of knowledge and expertise that I did, at the same time in my career. (e.g.: 4 years in.) Worse, I think this is getting worse, as college CS programs seem to be becoming less effective over the years.

And the really state of the art stuff- you don't get in college anyway as an undergrad and if you're a graduate student you're reading the same things that people doing it on the job are reading.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#43
post #39

A big thing that no one has mentioned: if you ever want to work in a field outside of tech, you'll probably need a degree. I don't know about your personal situation, but I sure as hell didn't know how I wanted to spend the rest of my work life doing at 18 (and I still don't 4 years later.) Not going to college would have only stunted my growth and left me staring down the same potential paths. College forces you to…

>you'll probably need a degree You may be right, but I see the phrase above as code for "college graduates discriminate against people without degrees". Notice you didn't say "You'll need the skills a degree gives you". The reality is, you can get skills in a variety of ways. Most people who switch careers don't do thinks they have no skills in, they find a better use for the skills they do have. I don't see how coll…

1. I don't make the hiring decisions at most companies. Fact is, at most companies outside of the HN-SV-tech startup world, a degree shows that you're competent, and you're facing an uphill battle without one.

2. College exposes you to subjects that you normally wouldn't be exposed to. Being an engineer is a respectable profession, but if you've never actually tried other subjects, how could you know if it's the right career for you? Or for that matter, how would you be exposed to some of the best things in life, like literature and art? Sure, you could just go to the library, but quite frankly, most people don't know what they don't know. College isn't going to make you into a Renaissance man, but a few years of courses in various subjects will help you develop into a more well-rounded person.

3. I agree that outside-the-classroom experience is essential, but working at a random startup company isn't going to expose you to anything except running a business and the narrow niche it occupies. Great stuff for learning about entrepreneurship, but useless when it comes to basically anything else. You aren't going to learn about humanism or the philosophy of science at your web 2.0 app startup.

4. You'd have a degree, which shows a baseline of competence and is required for advancement in many companies.

5. Starting a business is better than working at a little startup, in my opinion. And there's no reason why you can't do one or both while in school.

6. Not arguing with you about grades, but that's missing the point. College shouldn't be about getting good grades, it should be about broadening your experience of life. If you spent 4 years locked in a room studying engineering, then yes, you'd be better off not going.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#44
post #4

If you're an engineer, and you drop out and you work for 4-6 years, nobody is ever going to care, or probably know, that you don't have a degree. My personal experience was that I got a hell of a good job when looking for a summer job, and I just kept at it. I'm in my 40s now, and in my career, not having a degree has NEVER been the slightest problem. I was in such demand that I started limiting how many interviews I…

"If you're an engineer, and you drop out and you work for 4-6 years, nobody is ever going to care, or probably know, that you don't have a degree."

That's simply not true. Your co-workers and colleagues may not know or care. Your boss and her boss may not know or care. (Although to be candid I suspect more of them both know and are at least a little influenced by it than you seem to think.) But if you're working in a large enough organization (and "large enough" is getting smaller all the time), at the very least someone in the HR department is going to both know and care. You may not qualify for a given job or promotion. You may not get paid as much as you otherwise would. You stand a moderately good chance of being caught if you try to lie about it. (Background checks-as-a-service are out there and getting cheaper just like everything else.)

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#45

You typically don't notice the advantages/disadvantages of having a degree from a good college. It's very silent, much like racial privilege. Very few jobs will openly reject you for not having a degree, but if you have a degree from a good school people recommend you more, and tend to assume you're smarter. They're more likely to value your opinion, more likely to brag about having you on their team. A lot of compan…

It is true there are a class of companies, bumpkin type companies like insurance companies, for instance, who hire engineers who care a great deal about degrees. There are also bumpkin bosses who think wouldn't interview someone who doesn't have a degree.

You know what? Those same companies and bosses are so caught up in their prejudice that when they see my resume, they never notice I don't have a degree! They still hire me.

The idea you need a "degree from a good college" is silliness.

Here's the thing. Kids aren't ready for the realities of the world. So a 12 year old who brings you their drawing-- even if its crappy- you're going to tell them its great.

All thru out their lives you want to encourage them to do well, so you tell them to get good grades so that they can go to a good college and then to get good grades at their college so they can get a good job.

That first year out of school, how you do in college does affect what kind of jobs you get offered.

But college has not taught you to be a professional. College is the last of the nurseries. When you get your job, you're in the real world. Colleges let you live in dorms and let you make more mistakes but it is still a coddling environment.

When you're in college you have no idea-- because this is your life and its been your life your whole life-- what the difference is between college and the real world.

Everything you're saying there is the assumption of an unspoken privilege. I'm telling you that privilege doesn't exist in the real world. IF you hustle and can sell yourself and have good skills, these things are far more deterministic of how far you go and what you earn than having a degree, let alone what college you went to for that degree.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you'll probably need a degree You may be right, but I see the phrase above as code for "college graduates discriminate against people without degrees". Notice you didn't say "You'll need the skills a degree gives you". The reality is, you can get skills in a variety of ways. Most people who switch careers don't do thinks they have no skills in, they find a better use for the skills they do have. I don't see how coll…

1. I don't make the hiring decisions at most companies. Fact is, at most companies outside of the HN-SV-tech startup world, a degree shows that you're competent, and you're facing an uphill battle without one. 2. College exposes you to subjects that you normally wouldn't be exposed to. Being an engineer is a respectable profession, but if you've never actually tried other subjects, how could you know if it's the righ…

1. This has not been my experience. I've sent my resume to these kinds of companies "non tech" companies, at various periods and have had no trouble getting gigs with them (I was consulting at the time.)

2. This is pure prejudice. It may be true for many people, but it is not universally true. Some people go to college having no idea what they want to be. That was me and I studied physics but it quickly became clear that software was what I cared about (originally I thought it had been electronics.) It wasn't the exposure to physics that made it clear I wanted to do software. Plus the terrible "exposure" of college to Economics, Sociology, Philosophy, and History turned me off of those subjects for a few years... then later, I started reading up on them, and have become more proficient in 2 of them on my own than I would have been if I'd majored in them in college. College doesn't make you more well rounded. You can sleep thru all those classes. Its not like you can't order all the literature you want from amazon.com, or see great paintings at museums or on the internet. What it does is force you to spend time on things that are outside your subject area-- and that would be valuable if college delivered anything useful about them, but it doesn't. Those classes are a full employment program for liberal arts graduates.

3. I think you're speaking from a lack of experience here- because if you'd ever started and grown a business, you'd know it has an impact on many aspects of your life. For instance, my deep love of history and economics were as a result of starting and growing a tech business. Economics is important to business, for obvious reasons, history less so. Further, your response shows a form of anti-intellectualism that is the real crime of colleges. They actually teach people not to think, in a way, but to believe. The anti-business perspective is a real shame, because its actually anti-life. (It was my study of philosophy that helped me understand that.)

4. A degree shows nothing, and is not required. You only think a degree is required for advancement because you've not been working in the real world. What determines advancement is performance usually, though often politics and the external state of the company with regards to your area of it (Eg: having a good year or not.) Nobody remembers you don't have a degree.

5. Starting a business is better than being an employee of a little startup, which is better than going to college. But yes, you can do either while going to college, though you're trading off the amount of education you'll get in favor of spending time at college.

6. People who need their life experiences broadened by college aren't really going to get it in college. Oh, wait, you're talking about partying, right? At any rate, I think you've got a false dichotomy going here. Whether you are broad minded and well rounded is determined whether you are curious about things and follow up on that curiosity, not being forced to sit thru some really low level "education" in subjects you're not interested in. It comes from pursuing your interests without regard for which subject matter they lead you to.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#48
Notice how the advocates of college are not selling the education you get from it and the skills so much as trying to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt in you? This actually works as a filter- those who think for themselves will not fall for this and will end up leading companies and being very successful. Those who are highly influenced and controlled by the opinions of others, however, will worry about this, and will go to college because its the "right thing to do" and will live long careers at safe companies getting their annual bump, thinking they're doing a lot better than those irresponsible people who dropped out. They'll spend their lives sucking down the daily humiliation of dealing with an idiot boss, because once you've got 5, 10 years with a company, why throw away your pension over working for an idiot? They'll be people who work for others.

So the real question is-- are you someone who is going to make something of yourself? Or are you going to want the safety of working for other people, where the outcome of your life was determined by someone else?

Sure its scary. Notice all the FUD being put forward here. I can tell you the reality s this-- a few years of work experience and nobody cares whether you went to college or not. Employers know that college is not the same as experience and is far less valuable.

IF you listen to others, they are always going to advise the mainstream "safe" route. This is why they don't achieve real success in life.

I've seen this often:

-- The mainstream choice is college, but you lose 4 years of career experience and instead of making money you spend it. The financial outcome is negative, but most people do it anyway.

-- Most people put their money in index funds or mutual funds and make mediocre returns because they believe they can't beat the market (but spend $50 on books) and 5 hours a year on it, and you can far beat the market. (The idea that it is even hard is silly-- but most people are convinced of it and so they tell other people that they can't' do it, or point to studies that show that, in aggregate, the result of people investing in the market is market returns (minus commissions) which conclude that they underperform the market. Well, of course, you're taking the actual market (the people in aggregate) comparing it to the market and then subtracting commissions, how can that not underperform?)

-- They buy houses in a bubble and then blame the banks when their mortgage is underwater. (I knew there would be a bubble in 2001, because of an article on mises.org ... because of economics.) "But you never lose money buying a house".

-- They live their lives in their house, limiting themselves to employers within a reasonable commute...when they could be traveling the world, and visiting a dozen countries a year. I'm doing that, and running a startup and our cost of living is less than the average household income in the USA. Yet for american to travel they think they have to run up a credit card debt that takes them a decade to pay off.

This is the real question- are you going to make something of yourself, or are you going to accept what life gives you if you just doing what everyone else does?

Would you rather be a self made failure than a coasting weak "success"?

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#49
post #44
post #4

If you're an engineer, and you drop out and you work for 4-6 years, nobody is ever going to care, or probably know, that you don't have a degree. My personal experience was that I got a hell of a good job when looking for a summer job, and I just kept at it. I'm in my 40s now, and in my career, not having a degree has NEVER been the slightest problem. I was in such demand that I started limiting how many interviews I…

"If you're an engineer, and you drop out and you work for 4-6 years, nobody is ever going to care, or probably know, that you don't have a degree." That's simply not true. Your co-workers and colleagues may not know or care. Your boss and her boss may not know or care. (Although to be candid I suspect more of them both know and are at least a little influenced by it than you seem to think.) But if you're working in a…

You're just spreading FUD. And it simply isn't true. I'm not projecting here, I've done this very thing. I know. I've worked for several organizations with more than 10,000 employees.

I was not being silently discriminated against because I was rising faster than my peers almost all the time.

The market forces companies to do this because if they don't treat their employees well- particularly their employees with ability- then these employees will go somewhere that does.

Frankly, there's no reason to lie either. Having a college degree shows a certain timidity and inability to think for oneself, to me anyway. I'll cut someone slack for it when hiring because at that age you don't necessarily need to be that certain about yourself.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#50
post #48

Notice how the advocates of college are not selling the education you get from it and the skills so much as trying to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt in you? This actually works as a filter- those who think for themselves will not fall for this and will end up leading companies and being very successful. Those who are highly influenced and controlled by the opinions of others, however, will worry about this, and…

Woah man, you've really got some deep problem with college - you've written half a book on this page.

Step out of the black-and-white world where college = follower and dropout = leader. It's perfectly possible to go to college and not be a "coasting weak success."

For many people, college is a good experience. An experience worth 100k in debt? Probably not, but that's an extreme example. Maybe college wasn't for you. But it sure seems like you've got a massive chip on your shoulder, especially with lines like "having a college degree shows a certain timidity and inability to think for oneself, to me anyway."

Post reply on HN