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Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

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Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#91

Post by Voultapher »

kybernetyk wrote: post #30

>murder Setting a bunch of cookies isn’t something I would equate to murder. If you want me to read your article please use less hyperbole. The author sounds like an unhinged lunatic who takes his pet issue way too seriously.

I think the user coldtea makes valid points. I'd like to add that we don't know what the author Cory Doctorow was alluding to when he wrote:

> Companies really do get away with both literal and figurative murder.

If you interpret that as corporations, sometimes commit literal murder. I think that's factually true, for example https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-securit... and https://lawblogs.uc.edu/ihrlr/2021/05/28/pipeline-of-violenc...

Taking that out of context and implying he equates setting cookies, I think that's in bad faith.

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#92

Post by MagnumOpus »

piltdownman wrote: post #76

This is the epitome of ill-informed and emotive polemic, written in a tabloid-esque fervour worthy of The National Inquirer. The Author starts with a inherently flawed argument around the concept of duty-free - holding it as some sort of totem indicating a cultural proclivity for the Irish towards large-scale tax evasion. The concept of things like bonded warehouses and Tourist Refund Schemes are ignored, despite him…

Dear newly-created "Irish" account, all of your critique misses the mark. The author is very obviously not racist, and has not mentioned headline corporate tax rates at all.

The eagerness of successive Irish goverments to facilitate zero corporate tax payments across the EU by US corporations in exchange for a few thousand jobs, via tax evoision schemes such as the Double Irish, the Single Malt and its current successor the CAIA is very well known. As is the deliberate sabotage of EU-wide GDPR legal enforcement by the Irish regulators at the DPC.

If you can't see why the Irish EU membership is a net liability for the bloc, you are blinkered.

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#93

Post by Voultapher »

wkat4242 wrote: post #12

I'm liking this guy even more every time. I agree with him so much and his enshittification term really hit the nail on the head. Also really like that he hosts his blog on his own site so I don't have to go to that terrible crap that medium is to read it.

I'm in the same boat. While his writing is clearly ideological, it aligns with my world view and opened my eyes to the extent of these abuses. For example with this article, I was aware of some of the points, but didn't realize the million dollar fee thing for alternative app stores. Looking at this press post by Apple https://www.techpowerup.com/318370/apple-announces-changes-t... we can see them patting themselves on the back. They are so arrogant they literally put out marketing material that says, we believe our compliance with the DMA is so malicious that less than 1% of developers would want to chose it, even when the alternative means sticking to the outlandish 30% fees.

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#94

Post by MagnumOpus »

matwood wrote: post #75
southerntofu wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know they would be easily scammed by shady apps that don't have to pass through the App Store's review process. My entire family uses F-Droid on ungoogled Androids. They have much less chances to be scammed/exploited because F-Droid is community-run and is explicit about anti-features in the store UI. There just isn't any malware/scam on F-Droid to be scammed with, because the community decides what apps to add a…

You have laid out Apple's argument for them. Android offers a more open experience in the market, and the market should then decide which to use. Users have a choice today and in the EU, ~66% of users have chosen Android. I think Apple is dumb for not adjusting here ahead of time, because they have pushed the government to come up with poorly thought out laws like the DMA.

The other users who already spent the money paying for Apple-made devices should also enjoy the experience without having Apple lock them in to charge 30% for services subsequently. That sort of leveraging market position to extort extra money from previous buyers is part of what antitrust is designed to forestall/fix.

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#96

Post by MagnumOpus »

newbie578 wrote: post #44
phatfish wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm counting down the days like it's Christmas.

I find it hilarious how certain people on HN are so pro-corpo. You get a feeling like Apple is part of their family, not a monopolistic giant just needing one excuse to permaban you from their services.

A good proportion of these people have the majority of their multi-million dollar wealth tied up in a single on of the FAAMG megacorps, or in a stock portfolio heavily invested in them.

As they say, "it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it". Even the ones that are not outright shills and cheerleaders often exhibit motivated reasoning...

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#97

Post by hnaiobsession »

Whether Apple is non-compliant and if yes, to what extent, will be known weeks or months after this is rolled out.

John Gruber, writing on “Apple’s Plan for DMA in the European Union” [1]:

> I’ve emphasized throughout this piece the word proposals. That’s key, because no one, including Apple, knows whether the European Commission is going to find any or all of them compliant with the DMA. Apple has met with EC representatives dozens of times across several years regarding the DMA, but the way the EC works is that (1) they pass laws; (2) companies do all the work to attempt compliance with those laws; and only then (3) does the EC decide whether they comply. Companies like Apple don’t get to run ideas past the EC and get a thumbs-up or thumbs-down. They have to build them, then find out.

I loved this ending in that post:

> The delicious irony in Apple’s not knowing if these massive, complicated proposals will be deemed DMA-compliant is that their dealings with the European Commission sound exactly like App Store developers’ dealings with Apple. Do all the work to build it first, and only then find out if it passes muster with largely inscrutable rules interpreted by faceless bureaucrats.

[1]: https://daringfireball.net/2024/01/apples_plans_for_the_dma

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#98

Post by piltdownman »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #92
piltdownman wrote: post #76

This is the epitome of ill-informed and emotive polemic, written in a tabloid-esque fervour worthy of The National Inquirer. The Author starts with a inherently flawed argument around the concept of duty-free - holding it as some sort of totem indicating a cultural proclivity for the Irish towards large-scale tax evasion. The concept of things like bonded warehouses and Tourist Refund Schemes are ignored, despite him…

Dear newly-created "Irish" account, all of your critique misses the mark. The author is very obviously not racist, and has not mentioned headline corporate tax rates at all. The eagerness of successive Irish goverments to facilitate zero corporate tax payments across the EU by US corporations in exchange for a few thousand jobs, via tax evoision schemes such as the Double Irish, the Single Malt and its current succes…

I think you'll find the comment section of Junge Freiheit a more receptive forum for these sort of fantastical economic hot-takes.

As for your incredibly racist proposition that Irish EU membership is a net liability for the bloc, it was never an issue when Ireland’s supposed light-touch, low tax regulatory regime complemented German banking’s hunt for new, profitable opportunities - indeed Germany’s Schröder administration actively encouraged the internationalisation of German banks, inciting a two decade process of bank deregulation continued by the first Merkel government and a hybrid regulatory system that nearly bankrupted the EU.

As German economist Prof Henrik Enderlein of Berlin's Hertie School of Governance put it “For the bankers it was always clear: the German government would never allow big German banks go broke, there was an implicit guarantee for them. It was as if you gave a gambler multimillion loans and sent him into a casino.”

The problem is it wasn't multimillion. It was multibillion. The Irish state ended up guaranteeing €73 billion at the end of 2012 – for everything from senior unsecured bank bonds to deposits over €100,000 - under immense pressure from the ECB.

Sahra Wagenknecht, Economist and 14 year veteran of the Bundestag summed it up very succinctly "To this day many people in Germany believe, wrongly, that rescue plans in assist the populations in each respective country, paid for by German taxpayers. Things are the other way around: the Irish population will probably have to spend decades bleeding for the speculation of German banks."

Andres Veiel, the esteemed German film director and screenwriter, went so far as to crystallise the Issue in 'The Raspberry Reich'. As he bluntly and accurately puts it: "The problem is there's no readiness here in Germany to think things through to the end, such as how the link between risk and liability was broken in Ireland's case so that investors, including German banks and their shareholders, could get away without covering their own losses."

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#99

Post by piva00 »

piltdownman wrote: post #89
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that his attacks on Ireland's corporation tax arrangements are hyperbolic and unnecessarily inflamatory. But I think his point about the Irish data commissioner is valid. While EU countries are allowed to compete on tax, competing on lax law enforcement or lax interpretation of the law is unacceptable.

It's not a case of lax enforcement, it's simply a case of David vs Goliath. Ireland, as a country has a population of 5 million and is 1/8th the Size of Texas. The nearest comparable European capital, London, has a population of 9 million. GDPR was only introduced in 2018. Since then the Irish DPC has transformed from a small regionally-based office of 27 staff into an independent pan-EU regulatory body of ~250 SMEs…

> the role of Federal Overseer that we accidentally found ourselves in

Not so accidentally since Ireland has pursued being the place for Big Tech to park their EU's HQs in through incentives provided by the Irish government. With that comes big responsibilities to the bloc as well, I just challenge the notion of "accidentally" since Ireland designed itself on tax schemes to be a hotspot for the HQs of international Big Tech.

The Irish DPC also had to be forced by the EUDPB to comply with GDPR enforcement, it wasn't out of goodwill that the Irish DPC got so active in 2023.

Re: Apple to EU: "Go fuck yourself"

#100

Post by piva00 »

matwood wrote: post #87
danogentili wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I certainly do: if Apple can't behave, there's no reason their unrepairable, overpriced garbage should stay on the EU market.

> overpriced garbage You have highlighted my issue with this whole DMA situation. Every Android phone I have used has felt like privacy invading garbage (except maybe the nexus 4), yet I don't think they should be off market. I simply use an iPhone instead. Instead of the DMA being pro-consumer, I read it as anti-business (probably US business). It feels created out of EU jealously of the US tech industry, and second…

> It feels created out of EU jealously of the US tech industry

If it feels like that for you I recommend checking your emotional state, the EU has a different approach to regulating businesses than the USA, it's not jealousy but different principles aiming for different outcomes than what the USA aims for.

> Instead of the DMA being pro-consumer, I read it as anti-business (probably US business).

You've criticised the DMA twice about being: a bad implementation, and now as anti-business. Yes, it is anti a specific case of business which in the EU's view is not aligned to the outcomes it wants in the economy, calling the EU anti-business is, at best, naïve, since it's an organisation focused first and foremost to deal with commerce and business in general. It is against business using leverages against citizens, something that the USA does not seem to care about, and that's fine for the USA just don't try to apply the same principles you live under to a different culture regarding businesses.

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