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Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

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Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#31

Post by wslh »

throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

> I will honestly prefer to just ban all tech from schools.

If we are talking about high schools and mainly technical high schools banning tech is contrary to the point of the school. I think a balanced view is better: carrying laptops on classes where you need them and also adapt classes if laptop could be beneficial.

Even in elementary school, my child has robotics.

In general, I think politicians use binary yes/no options because they are lazy and/or incapable of working or thinking harder.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#32

Post by choffee »

In general this is a good decision. Google does not need to collect all that data and should provide an education package that protects the children's data. However this will probably just means that Microsoft now has a mandated monopoly for the foreseeable future.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#33

Post by dalore »

lukan wrote: post #23
draugadrotten wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of tech like chemistry class. We don't let kids carry around chemicals all day to use however they want. Instead, we have them do experiments in a special lab under close watch. Computers should be treated the same way. They shouldn't be something students can use anytime, anywhere without guidance. Just like we handle dangerous chemicals with care, we should also be careful with technology. It's powerful, and…

Chemistry is something that can explode and poison you. And a normal person cannot buy dangerous chemicals (that easily). Computers are normal in everyday life and allmost every job. Whether it is research, or writing or programming - artificially seperating students from such a integral part of modern life seems not that practical. At least not, if the goal is to raise the general level of computer savviness - which…

Computers can and are being used to poison the mind. You can get distracted, you can play games, you can go on sites like chat roulette which are popular with the kids etc

Knives are used in everyday life and can't explode or poison you either, yet we don't let our kids run around with knives for example. So saying if something can or can't explode is not a useful metric.

Teaching them how to use a computer under guidance, is useful and so should be treated like a tool to be taught on how to use. Not just handed out willy nilly.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#34

Post by lukan »

martin_a wrote: post #19
lukan wrote: post #12

Chromebooks are very well done technically. The "only" thing you would need to do, is un-google them. But then they don't work anymore ...

Well, there seems to be a solution, didn't see the talk yet, but it's available here: https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-11929-turning_chromebooks_into_r...

Ok wow, I did not watched it fully, but de-googeling actually seems way more complicated, than I thought.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#35

Post by ants_everywhere »

throwaway71271 wrote: post #20
blackhaz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We didn't have any tech in school and yet we've turned out just fine, now sitting here and typing this on HN. I'm all for banning tech from schools. Allowing Google to enter the school system has been a crime against our children.

We are very much responsible for being on the wrong side in the war against general purpose computing. The "user" not being able to change or understand any single program they use, being driven further and further away form the technology, in an almost comical way, that we have arrived to the point of "I dont know if i can plug a keyboard in my laptop". She tried to save a file, which of course did not work due to s…

> I just dont understand how did we end up here

The push to get children familiar with appliance computers as opposed to general purpose computers goes at least as far back as the 1980s with Apple.

So how we ended up here is basically nearly half a century of lobbying from computer manufacturers to promote proprietary computation appliances that children have limited or no control over.

> we studied the law and it turned out that there was a law already on the books... that said that if you donated a piece of scientific instrumentation or computer to a university for educational and research purposes you can take an extra tax deduction.... We thought that if we could apply that law, enhance it a little bit to extend it down to K through 8 and remove the research requirements so it was just educational, then we could give a hundred thousand computers away, one to each school in America.

Steve Jobs, quoted in https://hackeducation.com/2015/02/25/kids-cant-wait-apple

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#36

Post by nonrandomstring »

wslh wrote: post #31
throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

> I will honestly prefer to just ban all tech from schools. If we are talking about high schools and mainly technical high schools banning tech is contrary to the point of the school. I think a balanced view is better: carrying laptops on classes where you need them and also adapt classes if laptop could be beneficial. Even in elementary school, my child has robotics. In general, I think politicians use binary yes/no…

It seems common to confuse teaching children about technology and having children taught by technology.

The former is essential to a modern economy and way of life.

The latter is road to laziness, poor mental health and terrible learning outcomes.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#37

Post by ho_schi »

throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

As far as I know Sweden is rolling back[1]large parts of the digitalization at schools. Not just because of cloud usage, maintenance and incompetence.

The digital devices harm learning. Sweden will spend 60 million for reintroducing actual books, focus on actual reading and writing (important for learning and motoric ability).

I’m not surprised. While I’m sceptic about many positions of Manfred Spitzer [2] (University of Ulm) I’m afraid that he is right in many areas. A tablet is not the tool to discover the world for a child. They need to view, touch, smell and focus on matters.

Putting aside that Apple (iPad), Google (Chromebook) and Microsoft (Surface) just want to train child’s to depend on their stuff forever. We can still introduce computers at the age of 12 and the kids will adapt - and teach required basics (control your data, understand technic on high level, touch-typing, how you can access knowledge…and that a lot of companies and people are hostile).

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/11/sweden-says-ba...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Spitzer

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#38

Post by tuhriel »

choffee wrote: post #32

In general this is a good decision. Google does not need to collect all that data and should provide an education package that protects the children's data. However this will probably just means that Microsoft now has a mandated monopoly for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, I'm pretty torn up between those points. It is probably the only way to get non-Microsoft into the workflow of people, which reduces the lock-in syndrom with companies, where they use MS products because it's the one thing people know.

on the other hand it's an advertising company getting devices with their software to the kids, combined with often IT-Admins School Directors which don't understand how to create policies and implement them correctly.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#39

Post by logifail »

wslh wrote: post #31
throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

> I will honestly prefer to just ban all tech from schools. If we are talking about high schools and mainly technical high schools banning tech is contrary to the point of the school. I think a balanced view is better: carrying laptops on classes where you need them and also adapt classes if laptop could be beneficial. Even in elementary school, my child has robotics. In general, I think politicians use binary yes/no…

> laptops on classes where you need them

Apart from lessons directly about computing and/or technology - of which there may be a handful of hours per week in a regular highschool - the number of subjects which "need a laptop" in high school is vanishingly small.

> politicians use binary yes/no options because they are lazy and/or incapable of working or thinking harder

Lobbyists don't even use binary. They're always pushing their product.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#40

Post by ants_everywhere »

draugadrotten wrote: post #18
lukan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I will honestly prefer to just ban all tech from schools." But can one really hope, to prepare students for life then?

Think of tech like chemistry class. We don't let kids carry around chemicals all day to use however they want. Instead, we have them do experiments in a special lab under close watch. Computers should be treated the same way. They shouldn't be something students can use anytime, anywhere without guidance. Just like we handle dangerous chemicals with care, we should also be careful with technology. It's powerful, and…

The dirty secret is that a lot of teaching is being offloaded to proprietary education programs, at least in elementary school. So like it or not, computers are increasingly becoming not only a sideshow but a primary part of the fabric of education.

Part of me wants to see a program where students have to build everything from scratch before they can use it. Like each student gets something like a Rasberry Pi and they have to install an text based OS and then make the graphics stack work. If kids are smart enough to play Minecraft and legos they're smart enough to make something like that work. But basically no teacher would be qualified to teach it or troubleshoot, especially given how poorly we pay teachers currently.

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