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Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

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Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#371

Post by anon291 »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #229
anon291 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. The authors cite several instances of research done at other institutions as the main evidence that SAT/ACT scores are predictive of overall success. At that point, the a priori assumption is that Dartmouth would behave the same way, which they then go on to show. I agree that they could have fully analyzed graduation rates and full-term GPA, but other studies have already done that. I do believe their…

When I talk about statistics on HN it feels like I'm taking crazy pills. The HN community pretends to be intellectual, but the level of mathematical education here is terrible. > Moreover, you're hyperbolizing yourself. Namely, you criticize the title, which is not the author's title at all. Their letter is titled "Report From Working Group on the Role of Standardized Test Scores in Undergraduate Admissions" The auth…

You're right those sentences are there. My bad, I should have kept a closer eye. I looked at the author's title, which is indeed not as sensational as the HN title though.

> They are a statistically significant but practically insignificant predictor of academic success when you define it in the most absurd and irrelevant way (first year GPA).

As I said in my post, the bulk of their argument references other studies at similar institutions

> Summarizing data with some line, without any statistics, and saying "look the line slopes up", does not mean there is a linear relationship. At all. You cannot conclude one from the other.

They run their own linear regression. In no way is the argument "look the lines look linear".

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#372

Post by chaps »

hintymad wrote: post #370
ccleve wrote: post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

Is this a US thing because there has been so much debate on race, equity and etc? I thought this was obvious. Academic excellence arguably requires the least resources, which means the difference in social-economic status matters the least. All one needs is access to excellent books and internet resources, a competent teacher, and optionally a supporting community. And one driven kid can get all of them from librarie…

"All one needs is access to excellent books and internet resources, a competent teacher, and optionally a supporting community"

That "all" is doing a heck of a lot of work, to the point of being indistinguishable from satire!

A lot of SAT success happens because of families who can afford to train and hire tutors specifically for preparation.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#373

Post by sokoloff »

wnc3141 wrote: post #358

We may nitpick at which process gives more equitable chances of admission to Dartmouth. But ultimately we are still saddled with the absurd notion (and very real prospect) that a ticket to the middle class depends on winning very costly degrees. - particularly degrees whose brand recognition enables employment with greater proximity to the deployment of capital rather than operation of capital. Meanwhile there is lit…

Education scales to a point, but doesn’t scale infinitely. Professors are limited; labs are limited; dorms are limited; campus real estate is limited.

Some of those are amenable to short-term growth; others are not.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#374

Post by closeparen »

wnc3141 wrote: post #358

We may nitpick at which process gives more equitable chances of admission to Dartmouth. But ultimately we are still saddled with the absurd notion (and very real prospect) that a ticket to the middle class depends on winning very costly degrees. - particularly degrees whose brand recognition enables employment with greater proximity to the deployment of capital rather than operation of capital. Meanwhile there is lit…

Endowments are used to fund scholarships for students from middle-class and lower backgrounds. The degree is only costly to the extent that your parents are to well-off or your school's endowment is too small. (This is a serious problem if your parents are well-off but stingy, or if you get into an elite-ish but not actually top-tier college).

Endowments, like universities, are meant to be perpetual, so the amount of access they can provide is limited by the return on capital. Some people would perhaps like to see the principal spent down, which could provide dramatically more access in the short term, but then the money would be gone.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#375

Post by testfoobar »

melkor73 wrote: post #188
Ekaros wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you correct for that? Move all children to government controlled facilities and do not let them see their parents until they are some age like 21? Or maybe we should get rid of all criteria for education and just do huge once a year lottery. You get one chance to enter. As poor people can not afford more.

A large and generous welfare state.

To create wealth, you must identify and educate the most capable students.

The only way to pay for a large and generous welfare state is to educate the most capable to the highest level of ability. The tech industry was built by highly ambitious, competitive, risk-taking individuals.

"California collected almost $1 billion in personal income tax revenue from Palo Alto’s 94301 zip code in 2016. That was the most of any zip code in the state, according to a new LA Times analysis, which found that California’s top 1 percent of filers paid nearly 46 percent of income tax for that same year. "

https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101867426/californias-top-1-p....

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#376

Post by testfoobar »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47
BobaFloutist wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should be publicly run and free to take and send to universities.

There is a lot of support for students who can’t afford to take the test. What isn’t really included is test prep. China has the gaokao, which everyone can take, but the prep factor is real even if they tried to outlaw it.

Excellent, free test prep is available online. School districts will give you free chromebooks. They will give you free internet access points.

Education is free and freely available.

"Maximize your score with free Official Digital SAT® Prep"

https://www.khanacademy.org/digital-sat

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#377

Post by testfoobar »

fireflash38 wrote: post #224
codexb wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war against standardized tests has far more to do with black students performing disproportionately poorer on them. Many people are unwilling to acknowledge the multitude of cultural and socioeconomic factors responsible for that and instead want to simply chalk it up to racism. And so there's a war against any admissions policy that results in disproportionate racial outcomes, until we're left with admissions po…

> Many people are unwilling to acknowledge the multitude of cultural and socioeconomic factors responsible for that and instead want to simply chalk it up to racism. How many of those cultural and socioeconomic factors were almost directly related to racism though?

Racist policies against Asians in California have pretty deep history.

Yet Asians do well in California schools.

"The California Alien Land Law of 1913 (also known as the Webb–Haney Act) prohibited "aliens ineligible for citizenship" from owning agricultural land or possessing long-term leases over it, but permitted leases lasting up to three years.[1][2][3]....... The law was meant to discourage immigration from Asia, and to create an inhospitable climate for immigrants already living in California.[7][8][9]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Alien_Land_Law_of_1...

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#378

Post by lazyasciiart »

legolas2412 wrote: post #289
nick7376182 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with 90% of this but I would say it's not entirely "retarded". It USED to be a very valid disadvantage across the board to have a minority race or skin color, but now as racism becomes less pervasive and "affirmative action" has had time to take effect it is becoming less of an effect. To dismiss it entirely ignores how much it seems to have accomplished. I do hate to see poor and working class white male chi…

> It USED to be a very valid disadvantage across the board to have a minority race or skin color I completely agree that this used to be the case. I might even argue that it is still true to an extent. I will also agree that we should still address it. My problem is when addressing it involves discriminating against asian Americans like me. The people who want to discriminate against asian Americans are just using "h…

And the people who want to discriminate against Black Americans are just using "discriminating against Asian Americans" as an excuse, their actions are also political and ideological.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#379

Post by testfoobar »

webdood90 wrote: post #92
hardware2win wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Standardized exams are the most fair and transparent. Materials and tutors are available easily for free or cheaply on the internet nowadays.

> Standardized exams are the most fair and transparent. perhaps the _most_ fair right now, but certainly not what I would consider fair. consider a middle class family that has secure food, housing, and transportation vs lower class family where the child might potentially have less consistent sleep, food, or has to work to help pay bills. one has more distractions than the other.

Shelter, food and health are social issues that should be addressed much earlier in the pipeline. Well before a student applies to college.

For example in 2022, 63% of black children are born in single parent homes vs 16% of asian children. Having two parents around is an advantage in the doubling of resources.

What policy actions would you recommend to change what outcome?

https://datacenter.aecf.org/data/tables/107-children-in-sing...

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#380

Post by mp05 »

projektfu wrote: post #351
mp05 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were judged by my first year GPA I'd be homeless. Instead I'm really quite successful in spite of my first try (and miserable failure) at university. When I went back and was paying for tuition out of my own pocket as opposed to magic sky money falling into my lap from the US Dept of Education, things were a LOT different.

I think some of us (like me) were too immature at 18-22 to make good use of college. I'm not sure the amount of skin in the game would have made much difference, but I wouldn't have been able to pay for it myself, so that's a benefit. When I went back and got high grades, I also had manna-money from Direct loans. I just had a lot more life experience and maturity.

I see your point and relate, but had you asked me at 18 if I wanted to go so badly that I'd work my way through without loans, that would have been a hard pass.
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