Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then they should be publicly run and free to take and send to universities.
There is a lot of support for students who can’t afford to take the test. What isn’t really included is test prep. China has the gaokao, which everyone can take, but the prep factor is real even if they tried to outlaw it.
Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
81–90 of 451 posts
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#82Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.
If a school asks for SAT or ACT scores but, hypothetically, wants to discriminate based on race or some other characteristic, doesn't requiring the ACT/SAT make them more likely to be liable for discrimination because there is an objective standard to show that they are treating some groups differently than others? I thought that some of the recent rulings against selecting students based on their race hinged on the…
> It’s worth acknowledging a crucial part of this story. Dartmouth admits disadvantaged students who have scores that are lower on average than those of privileged students. The college doesn’t apologize for that. Students from poor neighborhoods or troubled high schools have effectively been running with wind in their face. They are not competing fairly with affluent teenagers.
> I also asked whether she was worried that conservative critics of affirmative action might use test scores to accuse Dartmouth of violating the recent Supreme Court ruling barring race-conscious admissions. She was not. Dartmouth can legally admit a diverse class while using test scores as one part of its holistic admissions process, she said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/briefing/dartmouth-sat.ht...
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tend to think there is an unspoken fear that if it became more accessible it loses its prestige
> I tend to think there is an unspoken fear that if it became more accessible it loses its prestige That might be a concern for Dartmouth and the Ivys. But for US state schools, not so much. And those generally provide a very high value:cost product.
Also means that the "just increase the spots" already happened as well, there is no lack of spots today, just a lack of prestigious spots. But not everyone can get into prestigious positions, by definition prestigious has to be something special and not for everyone.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#84Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.
If the universities were sincere about that, they would figure out how to increase enrollment. Why is every parameter of admissions open to change despite tradition, except that one?
It’s an objective truth that there are more elite students than there are positions in these schools. It’s also true that schools have absolutely exploded in administration size. They just haven’t hired more teachers.
Schools can’t double capcity overnight. But they currently aren’t making student body growth a goal. They prefer to keep it small and be extremely selective and exclusionary.
The flip side to this is that undergrad doesn’t matter. These elite schools don’t actually provide an elite education. They merely serve as a talent filter.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#85this says more (good stuff) about Dartmouth than it does about the standardized tests. If scoring higher on something that is close to an IQ test doesn't predict higher academic performance, what does that say about the coursework?
... is it close to an IQ test? Like, people study very specifically for these standardized tests, and success is also related to how much prep work you put in. I think that may also align with how people study for exams once they're enrolled students, how much work they put into projects/papers/etc.
But either way, it's a pretty good proxy for IQ.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#86Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#87I applied as an international student to a top tier liberal arts college equivalent to Dartmouth. I was able to make my case and was accepted there. My academic performance in both my first year and the rest of the four years was stellar.
Perhaps the SAT can be predictive of performance for those who grew up in the system that prepares you for the SAT (or ACT). For anyone else, this is however meaningless.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#88The headline should really be, "A test-optional policy is likely a barrier to Dartmouth identifying less-advantaged students who would succeed at Dartmouth." I think it's no surprise to anyone that test scores correlate with academic success, but it might seem counterintuitive that test-optional policies actually bias admission in favor of higher-income students.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#89If this was a paper submitted by one of my students, they would fail. Why would these faculty members sign their names to this drivel? If you read carefully, you see how useless SAT and ACT scores really are. Here are just a few insane things. > Figure 1 shows a linear relationship between SAT scores and cumulative first-year GPA for Dartmouth students. SAT scores are grouped into 16 equal-sized bins, and we plot mea…
I mean... do you have a full double-blind study done when you're sick to determine the right dosage for you, or does your doctor consult an existing dosing study, make sure nothing is substantially different between you and the study group, and then decide upon an appropriate dose. There's a certain point at which over-analyzing makes little sense. The authors here ARE NOT engaged in research. This is NOT peer-reviewed. It's a letter elucidating an opinion by researchers in the field based on their knowledge of previous literature in the field and then a surface-level analysis to make sure that those results ought to apply to Dartmouth as well.
Moreover, you're hyperbolizing yourself. Namely, you criticize the title, which is not the author's title at all. Their letter is titled "Report From Working Group on the Role of Standardized Test Scores in Undergraduate Admissions"
The authors main claim (on the first page after niceties) is that ".Our overall conclusion is that the use of SAT and ACT scores is an essential method by which Admissions can identify applicants who will succeed at Dartmouth." This is not "SAT / ACT scores are highly predictive...". It's an entirely different statement. Let's not confuse HN editorializing with the contents of the letter.
> The title would have you think that if you know a student's SAT scores, you would be good at predicting their outcomes at Dartmouth. The data shows this is wrong: if you only used SAT scores, you would almost always be wrong in predicting how well a student would do.
Except if you read the text, that's not at all what the authors claim. The authors do not claim the title (again... that's HN's title, not the paper's). The authors say:
> In short, consideration of SAT scores allows Admissions to identify applicants who will thrive academically at Dartmouth better than does the use of high school GPA alone.
which is true. Even if you don't think it's a useful predictor, it is a more useful predictor than GPA. This is a reasonable contrast because in the absence of test scores, this would be the only data available.
As for the other critiques. I agree that Figure 1 is not useful and shouldn't have been included. However, the table at the end is pretty straightforwards and provides essentially the same conclusion as above, which is that SAT is better than GPA. Moreover, just because the figure they included is bad does not mean the data they studied was. We'd need to know more, not wholesale reject their conclusion.
The authors then go on to argue that other papers agree with these conclusions (they do), and that alternates to both SAT and GPA (letters of rec, etc) have been shown to exacerbate inequality while having very little power to predict how well a student will do.
> The fact that there is a linear relationship means nothing statistically.
It does... in fact... mean that there is a linear relationship in the observed data with the given levels of significance. I'm not sure what exactly you're going at here. I agree a scatter plot of all the data might be more useful, but honestly, given the plethora of other work on the subject published by so many disparate institutions of higher ed, I really have no reason to believe dartmouth would be much different. So while the included figure is not great, I'm guessing that if we saw all the data the conclusion would probably still be the same.
Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]
#90Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.
If the universities were sincere about that, they would figure out how to increase enrollment. Why is every parameter of admissions open to change despite tradition, except that one?
Maybe controversial but I really believe this lowers overall standards. You just can't find enough faculty to meet the high standards.
Look what happened when tech blew up - they hired like crazy. I'd argue the overall level of programming skill went down.