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More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

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Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#201

Post by rootusrootus »

jacquesm wrote: post #44
loeg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to wonder if they're using this opportunity to dump all of their known bad production issues so they don't get sued for misleading shareholders later. The kind of stuff that wouldn't have ever come to light if the door hadn't fallen off that Portland flight. Maybe it's even something they can try to spin as improving quality control practices for brand rehabilitation. Or maybe I am just imagining things.

There is a pretty good chance (about 100%) that after that door fell off they are reviewing a lot of stuff and that is why this has been found, not so they can 'dump all of their known bad production issues' but simply because they are becoming aware of them and are legally mandated to report those issues. > Or maybe I am just imagining things. Quite possibly. I'm as cynical as they come but I'm actually happy that t…

I have to imagine that even a cold hearted MBA can probably appreciate that the PR damage occurring right now more than justifies the cost of a decently large team of people whose only reason for existing is auditing the assembly process.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#202

Post by JumpCrisscross »

BenoitP wrote: post #199
BoxFour wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like this guy? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Muilenburg

I've read that he was the token engineer in the see of accountants, MBAs and consultants. Cultural change goes much deeper than changing the CEO. Boeing might not be salvageable on the cheap side. Decapitating the company at levels 1-4 may not even be enough. It may require acknowledging that changing the flight envelope and software-patching it was a mistake. This is a major can of worms on itself. This means a plan…

> I've read that he was the token engineer in the see of accountants, MBAs and consultants

The myth that engineers make better leaders may have originated with Andy Grove.

In truth, there is no evidence for the claim. Jack Welch was as much an engineer as an asshole.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#203

Post by hackly »

philip1209 wrote: post #192

I haven't fully thought through this, but - Why can't regulators try splitting Boeing up, anti-trust style? Part of the issue is that there's no competition. (Yes, Airbus, but tariffs seem to factor into purchasing decisions a lot.) If you create more competition, everybody should benefit.

> If you create more competition, everybody should benefit.

Except shareholders

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#204

Post by rmk »

Is the "Stonecipher plan" to make such bad airplanes that they are forced to get out of Commercial Aviation? Is that even possible with the huge number of Boeing airliners in service? I'm assuming that Boeing is still on the hook, legally, for parts, service, and complying with Airworthiness Directives (ADs: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/airworthiness_direc...).

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#205

Post by atdrummond »

mcphage wrote: post #186
gruez wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> domestic flyers in the U.S. deserve something better than a 1967 design. Or maybe the market has spoken. Similar to how people complain about lack of legroom but proceed to book with airlines that have less legroom because it's cheaper, they're happy to fly on 1967 design planes to save a buck.

> Similar to how people complain about lack of legroom but proceed to book with airlines that have less legroom because it's cheaper When you're booking a plane ticket, you don't have much information about the legroom amount. Maybe you can tell somewhat from the airline, but most airlines have a variety of different planes, and I don't know how to use that information to determine legroom.

For future reference, Aerolopa.com has the majority of seating maps for the majority of airlines.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#206

Post by teaearlgraycold »

hackly wrote: post #203
philip1209 wrote: post #192

I haven't fully thought through this, but - Why can't regulators try splitting Boeing up, anti-trust style? Part of the issue is that there's no competition. (Yes, Airbus, but tariffs seem to factor into purchasing decisions a lot.) If you create more competition, everybody should benefit.

> If you create more competition, everybody should benefit. Except shareholders

Sorry, shareholders. gg no re

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#207

Post by dabraham1248 »

randmeerkat wrote: post #155
TylerE wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And dozens of his projects have utterly failed. Remember The Boring Company? Hyperloop? The-site-formerlly-and-forever-known-as-Twitter-until-Musk-ruined-it? Throw an unlimited supply of darts and you're going to get a few bulleyes. Doesn't make you the worlds greatest dart's player.

> And dozens of his projects have utterly failed. Remember The Boring Company? Hyperloop? The-site-formerlly-and-forever-known-as-Twitter-until-Musk-ruined-it? You say dozens and name two, one of which (X) is still up and running with active user engagement. Many people have thrown darts, none have developed self-landing reusable rockets and outcompeted ULA or developed a satellite based global internet provider. Not…

I mean, I dispute your implication that he's not destroying twitter (I mean, ever since he took it private we don't have hard numbers. But that itself doesn't suggest _good_ things).

But aside from that, and the two examples above, 1. x.com (the original) 2. tesla has been killing way more people since he retroactively became a founder (there was a delay while existing products moved through the pipeline) 3. solarcity 4. optimus 5. neuralink (well, ok, it hasn't failed yet. But _I'm_ not betting on it...) 6. the Tham Luang cave rescue 7. crypto 8. his relationships with his kids / exes

TBF, spacex appears to be his baby, and it has done _much_ better than I ever thought it would. There are rumors about the existence of a whole team there preventing him from breaking things, and personally, I believe them. But I have nothing _remotely_ like proof. And even if those rumors are true, spacex appears to have been his idea, he hired the first batch of people, etc. He can definitely take loads of credit for it, even if I don't think he deserves as much of said credit as he clearly thinks he deserves.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#208

Post by mikestew »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #34

Door blow out Engine on Fire 'Many loose bolts'. etc.. Now This. Have a flight in couple weeks? Time to worry?

I don't know if it's time to worry, but consider my experience last week on a 737-MAX9 on an Alaska Air flight. Alaska Air is advertising on their website the following:

"Systemwide flexible travel policy Due to Boeing 737-9 MAX aircraft inspections, we are offering a flexible travel policy if you would like to change or cancel your flight."

My wife and I did not take them up on that last week. Instead, we took the flight. Remember the days when you'd occasionally only have two passengers in a three-seat row? Yeah, those were the days, weren't they? How about if not only did my wife and I have the (exit) row to ourselves, there were entire rows that were empty. A guy one row ahead of us had the row to himself, and at the back of the plane there were probably three completely empty rows. Plenty of others had either a row to themselves, or just two people in the row. We were flying like it's 1999.

Worried? Nah, we weren't. Though I will point out that I only took my seatbelt off to get up and hit the head. I wasn't worried, but I'm not stupid.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#209

Post by brutopia »

balderdash wrote: post #113
tines wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - management culture and engineering culture are opposite ends of a spectrum.

I’d actually say it’s the safety culture that’s missing. Go have a phone call with someone at Shell and they’ll ask you if you’re in a safe place to have a call and if you know where the emergency exits are before starting the call. And the safety culture comes from the top regardless of if you’re an engineer or lawyer, or finance exec.

Sounds great! I introduced bike helmets for my team members to wear at office for additional safety and everybody’s loving it!

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#210

Post by altairprime »

stouset wrote: post #174
luuurker wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One needs to ignore a lot of stuff to believe these newer planes are very safe, so I'm not sure if it's completely irrational. You have a long list of fairly recent problems... the stuff around MCAS that killed people, misdrilled holes, loose or missing bolts, debris inside fuel tanks, etc. And the reason why no one died on the Alaska flight was more luck than anything. I'm not sure if everyone would be alive today h…

One needs to look at the data to believe these planes are very safe. Even if one or two people had died on the Alaska incident (which—to be clear—would have been an avoidable tragedy for which Boeing would be responsible), flying on a major airline in the U.S. is still safer than any other form of transportation. You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. You don’t follow the latest NHTSA crash tes…

> You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle.

I think twice quite regularly about hopping into a Tesla, and after years of avoiding them solely for aesthetic dislike, I found that they also have been burying quality control issues rather than repairing them — just like Boeing! — and so I intend to continue avoiding riding in them whenever possible.

> You don’t […] refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle.

I learned how to select the ride level in Uber/Lyft to ensure I don’t get a Tesla.

> traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine.

Traffic fatalities are unforced errors that I invest most of my energy while driving into avoiding — not just my own errors, but the potential errors of the walking and driving into avoiding. I won’t enter an intersection on the walk signal until I see the car start to decelerate, because I can’t trust that they’ve looked up from their phone long enough to prevent an unforced error that kills me. It’s the same lesson taught by “This vehicle stops at all railroad crossings” and “Don’t sleep under coconut trees”: the odds are slim that diligence saves lives, so remain diligent and occasionally save lives. I am just one life, and while I cannot take every precaution, I can certainly take those precautions that I deem worthwhile.

I recognize I’m more likely to die to a Tesla than in a Boeing and I have more precautions assigned to Teslas than I do Boeings. However: if the plane door blows off, I’ll be traumatized even if I live, and I would rather avoid that. As public transit riders, we do not deserve the increased chance of severe traumatic events that Boeing is inflicting on their passengers, onto us, by their shoddy manufacturing and QA.

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