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More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

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Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#171

Post by denton-scratch »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #6
rossdavidh wrote: post #3

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

Boeing needs to dump the CEO and install someone from an engineering lineage if they want to build their reputation back. An engineering company run by a longtime manager with a background in accounting is in large part how Boeing got here. Fire the guy and get someone with a technical background in there.

I don't buy the oft-repeated claim that you can re-make a company simply by replacing the CEO. I don't believe that CEOs in large companies have much influence on the company's direction, except in terms of decisions to downsize/outsource, how to use money, and who's on the board. There's only so much one person can do (and accordingly, I think all big-company CEOs are vastly overpaid).

Moving the deckchairs in the boardroom isn't going to solve systemic problems in a company.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#172

Post by AnimalMuppet »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #165
Workaccount2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing needs to dump the CEO and install someone from an engineering lineage if they want to build their reputation back. An engineering company run by a longtime manager with a background in accounting is in large part how Boeing got here. Fire the guy and get someone with a technical background in there.

I think you think Boeing's purpose in life is to make planes. I think it's primary objective is to make money for execs and short term traders. If airplanes come out of the company, it's a random side-effect.

> I think it's primary objective is to make money for execs...

Plausibly, yes.

> ... and short term traders.

Nope. Not even on the radar. Stockholders, maybe. Not short term traders. Short term traders have no say on the makeup of the board, nor on executive compensation. They therefore have zero input into the direction of the company.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#173

Post by FrustratedMonky »

SirMaster wrote: post #110
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #34

Door blow out Engine on Fire 'Many loose bolts'. etc.. Now This. Have a flight in couple weeks? Time to worry?

No, because the problems aren't worse than they were a few months ago before anyone was re-inspecting things for this. And you wouldn't have worried about this months ago, so there is no reason your worry should be greater now. If anything your worry now should be less since they are actually double checking these things now.

well technically.

We didn't find out about these things because of increased inspections.

We found out because it was in the news when there was videos of a door blown off, then a few days later an engine fire.

THEN, they started more inspections.

So, it seems more like a trend, where there were more and more problems until they piled up far enough to breach the surface.

So how many haven't been found, the ice-burg below the surface.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#174

Post by stouset »

luuurker wrote: post #160
stouset wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely no excuse for these issues. At the same time, not flying on Boeing planes out of fear of safety is completely irrational.

One needs to ignore a lot of stuff to believe these newer planes are very safe, so I'm not sure if it's completely irrational. You have a long list of fairly recent problems... the stuff around MCAS that killed people, misdrilled holes, loose or missing bolts, debris inside fuel tanks, etc. And the reason why no one died on the Alaska flight was more luck than anything. I'm not sure if everyone would be alive today h…

One needs to look at the data to believe these planes are very safe. Even if one or two people had died on the Alaska incident (which—to be clear—would have been an avoidable tragedy for which Boeing would be responsible), flying on a major airline in the U.S. is still safer than any other form of transportation.

You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. You don’t follow the latest NHTSA crash test reports and refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. You notice plane crashes because they are so exceedingly rare while traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#175

Post by rednerrus »

roody15 wrote: post #93

I cannot help but get the feeling that Boeing woes are like a canary in a coal mine for larger structural issues in the US government as a whole. Too much effort is put into spin, public relations and propaganda instead of actual just getting things done.

This is the legacy of Jack Welch. His short-term thinking to bolster stock price has become the new norm. There is a whole generation of CEOs who are following in Jack's failed footsteps.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#176

Post by ramesh31 »

flaminHotSpeedo wrote: post #128
ramesh31 wrote: post #73

Break. Them. Up. This is a concern of national security at the highest level. Boeing needs the Standard Oil treatment, which was a net positive for everyone involved.

That's actually exactly the wrong thing to do. The problem, at least in this case, is that Boeing chose to break off what is now known as Spirit Aerosystems into a separate entity, and now Spirit has Boeing by the balls because Boeing can't replace them and has to deal with the consequences of their shitty manufacturing and QC.

>The problem, at least in this case, is that Boeing chose to break off what is now known as Spirit Aerosystems into a separate entity

Spirit is nothing more than a basket of limited liability set up by Boeing for precisely such an ocurrence. Pretending that it's anything else is just buying into their BS corporate spin.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#177

Post by SirMaster »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #173
SirMaster wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because the problems aren't worse than they were a few months ago before anyone was re-inspecting things for this. And you wouldn't have worried about this months ago, so there is no reason your worry should be greater now. If anything your worry now should be less since they are actually double checking these things now.

well technically. We didn't find out about these things because of increased inspections. We found out because it was in the news when there was videos of a door blown off, then a few days later an engine fire. THEN, they started more inspections. So, it seems more like a trend, where there were more and more problems until they piled up far enough to breach the surface. So how many haven't been found, the ice-burg b…

My only point was that hearing about the issues found by more inspections shouldn't change your mind about the safety because performing more inspections and reporting on the findings doesn't reduce the safety of what it already was (what you were presumably already OK with before simply hearing about the new inspections and issues found).

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#178

Post by stouset »

kayfox wrote: post #55
stouset wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is irrational. Since November 2001, there has been one death aboard a major airline operating in the U.S.[1]. That was a Southwest flight where an entire engine self-destructed. It was an issue with the CFM engine, Not with anything Boeing did. You might choose to include one more. An Asiana flight tumbled end over end after arriving short at SFO. Everyone survived the crash, but a passenger was killed when an eme…

> It was an issue with the CFM engine, Not with anything Boeing did. The engine cowling was made by Boeing and was supposed to stay on when the engine lost fan blades, the cowling was what struck the side of the aircraft and broke the window in question. Boeing is redesigning the 737 cowlings to better respond to blade out failures.

Turns out you’re correct. The engine is a CFM, but the cowling (which is supposed to contain ejected fan blades) is designed by the airframe manufacturer. In this case, Boeing. TIL!

Chalk one death up to a Boeing design in the last 21 years.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#179

Post by denton-scratch »

mschuster91 wrote: post #100
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said this in a previous thread, a QA/QC/SOP firm either has a culture where nobody would dare violate SOP or it doesn’t. It’s not about “admitting” a problem, they already have the SOPs and inspection protocols that reveal defects and proscribe ways to identify, document and address any defect. But as the QA guys where I work say, they are a cost center. There are two real questions here, can Boeing strictly follow…

> They either have the war chest or the financial backing to pull that off without an immediate price increase or they’re toast. Boeing has gotten Too Big To Fail, way too much military/space contracts. The US government can't let them fail because then the only remaining space capability would be SpaceX who can't fulfil everything (and is under control of an increasingly erratic billionaire). What should happen is t…

When was the last time you remember the USG nationalizing a large corporation?

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#180

Post by rconti »

PaulHoule wrote: post #144
rossdavidh wrote: post #3

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

It's not just about safety, it's about the flying experience and environmental responsibility. If you think "flying sucks" it's probably because you've flown in a 737 and similar (A320) aircraft. Many people find it highly stressful to fly in a 737-class airplane because the curve of the fuselage is circular. My neck starts to lock up just thinking about it, but you don't have the same problem riding in a car, bus, o…

I was just commenting to a friend (who was on a massively delayed flight out of SFO yesterday) that, when I'm in Economy, I want a window so I can see what's going on outside. I feel anxious during delays and just want to get off the ground.

When I'm in business class, I simply don't care what's going on outside. Let me know when we land.

Now, bear with me, because this might sound obvious, but I don't think it is. You can have in-flight-entertainment in Economy. You can have videos playing on your tablet or whatever. We have far more distractions than ever before. You can read your book, listen to your music. The seats are comfortable enough in the first hour of your delay. At 5'10" I have sufficient legroom.

I think the difference is the seat pitch. I don't consider myself claustrophobic, but staring at a seatback 2 feet in front of my face just makes me want to see what the hell is going on to get me off the ground and to my destination. I think this is far more of an issue than the curvature of the fuselage.

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