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More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

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Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#61

Post by Certhas »

tsunamifury wrote: post #11
Workaccount2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing needs to dump the CEO and install someone from an engineering lineage if they want to build their reputation back. An engineering company run by a longtime manager with a background in accounting is in large part how Boeing got here. Fire the guy and get someone with a technical background in there.

Ah yes the fantasy that an IC can just magic this all away. This would likely result in a CEO with no pull and a CFO that had all the hard power to call the shots. The reality seems to be, for some reason, building profitable and safe planes in America is becoming increasingly difficult. A company most be able to do both: build a quality and safe product and make a margin. It can’t exist without revenue. I’m guessing…

No matter how profitable building good planes is, building slightly worse planes that are bought in equal numbers is more profitable. The profit maximizing move is to lower quality until sales suffer more than profitability is increased. And if you have a strong reputation, and feedback cycles on product quality are long, lower quality might take a long time to actually be noticeable in sales.

Boeing profits and sales had been on a steady upwards trajectory for 20 years until 2019:

https://www.helgilibrary.com/charts/boeing-profits-sales-qua...

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#62

Post by anticensor »

magicalhippo wrote: post #39
wasmitnetzen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shareholders might have an opinion though, and Ryanair buying MAX's at a discount when nobody else wanted them might not make them happy.

> Ryanair buying MAX's at a discount I mean, to be fair this plays right into Ryanair's strategy. Want a door plug? Pay extra.

No, want a door plug? Pay less (as you would be paying by risking your life).

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#63

Post by [deleted] »

stouset wrote: post #18
user3939382 wrote: post #4

This is to the point where, although it's irrational but I know statistically I'd be fine, I'd be scared to fly on any new generation Boeing.

It is irrational. Since November 2001, there has been one death aboard a major airline operating in the U.S.[1]. That was a Southwest flight where an entire engine self-destructed. It was an issue with the CFM engine, Not with anything Boeing did. You might choose to include one more. An Asiana flight tumbled end over end after arriving short at SFO. Everyone survived the crash, but a passenger was killed when an eme…

[deleted]

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#64

Post by Rantenki »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #34

Door blow out Engine on Fire 'Many loose bolts'. etc.. Now This. Have a flight in couple weeks? Time to worry?

If you're on a 737-max-anything, then worry a _tiny_ bit, otherwise, no. All their other planes have excellent safety records.

For comparison, Russia had a 2.29 fatal accidents/million departures safety rating in 2021, which is terrible, worst of all operating regions. 737-maxes had a 3.08 in 2019 when they got grounded. Every other plane in North America is averaging about 0.20 right now.

Granted, the 737-max's stat is based on a fairly low number of crashes. Regardless, the odds of a fatal crash are still vanishingly low on any given trip.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#65

Post by kayfox »

repiret wrote: post #46
Etheryte wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This question comes up every time articles like these come up and the answer is no, there is no reliable way unless you check what airplane you're boarding right as you walk on it. Airlines regularly swap out planes to cover up for delayed flights, weather, mismatched demand etc and the plane model you're shown as you're buying the ticket is not necessarily the plane you're gonna fly.

I’m not convinced that actually happens very often. I can’t remember a case where it has happened to me, and consider that changing to a type with a different number of seats would require issue in new tickets. And you need to balance demand not on a single route, but on the entire circuit the plane needs to fly.

This happens a lot when your flying with Alaska or Southwest. Both airlines have significant MAX fleets and will change the dispatch schedule for aircraft fairly often, in my experience on Alaska it happens about 10~20% of the time.

Also, Southwest does not assign seats and Alaska does not have a difference in seats between their -900 and MAX 9 aircraft. Although with Alaska I have had my seat reassigned because they changed from a -900/MAX 9 to a -800 before.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#66

Post by mayneack »

rossdavidh wrote: post #3

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

For what it's worth, in "Flying Blind", the book written about the first round of 737 max issues, the author has a pretty negative outlook on Calhoun as being mostly aligned with Muilenburg.

> Robison, however, finds little reason for optimism. While Boeing has now accepted responsibility for one of the crashes as part of a settlement, no one at the company besides Forkner has been charged with a crime. Muilenburg was ousted as C.E.O., but still collected a $60 million golden parachute. After being grounded for more than a year, the 737 Max is back in service. And today, Boeing is led by Dave Calhoun, another Jack Welch protégé who was on the Boeing board for years, and was intimately involved in the company’s botched response to the crashes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/books/review/peter-robiso...

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/646497/flying-blind...

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#67

Post by [deleted] »

stouset wrote: post #18
user3939382 wrote: post #4

This is to the point where, although it's irrational but I know statistically I'd be fine, I'd be scared to fly on any new generation Boeing.

It is irrational. Since November 2001, there has been one death aboard a major airline operating in the U.S.[1]. That was a Southwest flight where an entire engine self-destructed. It was an issue with the CFM engine, Not with anything Boeing did. You might choose to include one more. An Asiana flight tumbled end over end after arriving short at SFO. Everyone survived the crash, but a passenger was killed when an eme…

[deleted]

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#68

Post by avalys »

spamizbad wrote: post #22
Workaccount2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing needs to dump the CEO and install someone from an engineering lineage if they want to build their reputation back. An engineering company run by a longtime manager with a background in accounting is in large part how Boeing got here. Fire the guy and get someone with a technical background in there.

I don't think having an engineer as a leader is some golden ticket to success. Its ultimately what ruined Nortel for example.

Selecting an engineer doesn’t absolve the board of the responsibility to choose the right guy.

There are incompetent engineers, unethical engineers and there are engineers who are bad leaders.

But an accountant as CEO is not going to restore a culture of engineering excellence.

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