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Researchers taking on fraudulent science

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Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#71

Post by yabbs »

freework wrote: post #39
einpoklum wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most theoretical/abstract pursuits, from math to comparative literature, "doing the science" means "writing the text of the paper" - and nothing else; shall I film myself doing that? On second thought, maybe I could make a video of how I manage all of those dirty LaTeX tricks to squeeze my paper into less pages, at least there's some tangible payoff there...

> "doing the science" means "writing the text of the paper" The point is to show your work. You film yourself setting up the experiment to prove that you actually did the experiment. You also film yourself collecting the results, proving that you actually got the results you claim. The only kind of science that consists of "just writing the paper" is math. Math will be exempt from this requirement. Fake math is not a…

Economics

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#72

Post by dartos »

gmd63 wrote: post #68
joe_the_user wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Scientists need to care about the truth and most do care. The problem is both that as "publish or perish" becomes more and more literal people feel a strong incentive to cheat and moreover we have increasing cynicism as the system treats a given scientist as disposable. Constant surveillance wouldn't address that, if anything it would increase the cynicism. Just much, no brilliant scientist is going to wo…

Working with a labmate is also constant surveillance. I think you're dressing it up to be something far more negative than it actually is. I think streaming or recording would decrease cynicism. The openness would allow scientists to avoid false idolatry of people who juiced their citations with fraudulent research. And the cost of dealing with the fallout from fraud would be eliminated. I suspect that the fraud itse…

A labmate and a permanent recording are not comparable levels of surveillance.

Especially if that recording is publicly accessible.

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#73

Post by chiefalchemist »

georgeecollins wrote: post #11
Frost1x wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a huge problem. When fraud is rewarded over legitimate research we lose so many times. I’d generalize this further and say we have an underlying economy and society that rewards fraud over what should be happening widespread. It’s happening everywhere and lying seems to be one of the best strategies to success. With competitive pressures increasing, it’s often even worth the risk. This may have always been t…

>> There’s few if any establishments I trust anymore. Sorry, but that's tin foil hat territory. Everyday I trust my bank to handle my money fairly, the gas station to give the right amount of gas, the labels on food and medicine to be accurate, the weather report, etc. etc. I am sure there are problems with virtually every institution that need to be addressed. But I am surrounded by reliable information and trusted…

Yes and no. E.g., Banking. Yes, trust them for transactions. It's their bread & butter. But if 2007 / 2008 taught us anything it's that the financial sector can't be trusted beyond simple transactions.

Labels on food? For ingredients? Again, sure. But where is the label for "the taste of this product has been engineered to increase your consumption of it. Your health? Ha. Forget about it."

And so on.

You're trusting the sheeps' clothing and are all but ignoring the wolf that hides beneath it.

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#74

Post by achillesheels »

neilv wrote: post #38

One of the many troubling things about recently exposed patterns of fraudulent science: every dishonest scientist or professor is taking up a position and funding that could've instead gone to any of surely numerous people with much more integrity. Permit all the cronyism and gaming around university hiring and admissions, and don't hold universities responsible for unethical behavior of their faculty and graduates,…

Except that HN does not subsist off of non-volition* fnding towards subject matters which don’t benefit human life. And the ones that purportedly do are so off, we have the evidence of the genetic regression to the mean in the randomly sampled scientists heredity vis-a-vis independence in free will power, I.e. they come from peasants and slaves and lack original insight such as perceiving the world entirely electromagnetically.

The lack of training social scientists in cell life for a bachelors, or the biological sciences in electrical signaling, or the physical scientists in their necessary inferior perspective of natural changes because of measurement imperfections by their instruments and their body’s senses, is all telling for a community which has been avoiding the successes of electrical engineering for over a century, likely because they don’t want to do that math ;)

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#75

Post by 2cynykyl »

I think the discussions around this issue (in this thread and elsewhere) are missing a key point: The vast majority of academic research is conducted by graduate students working toward their PhD. For instance, the word "student" does appear in this page even once. I am not condoning fraud, but put yourself in the students' shoes, and ask which is more likely:

"Hmmm, these experiments that I have spent several years working on, and are the basis of my entire thesis, didn't work out. If I report the correct results, my entire project will be worthless and I will not earn my PhD. Too bad I wasted 5 years of the prime of my life pursuing this hypothesis which my supervisor insisted I investigate. I hear Costco has good benefits, I wonder if they're hiring?"

or

"Hmmm, if I just delete some outliers, cherry pick some experiments, ignore others, nudge a few of these data point in the right direction, and choose this specific statistical analysis, I can show a positive result, which means I can graduate, start my life and family (finally), get a job (maybe in academia, maybe not), and fulfill my dreams."

As I said, I am not condoning fraud, but the discussion of solutions need to focus on the right problem. Most discussions seem to imagine a professionally established scientist whose prestige and job promotion depend on good results. In reality the stakes are a lot higher if you realize that these results of literally life-changing for the graduate students doing the work. I guess I'm saying there is a human side to this issue beyond greed and prestige seeking (although there is plenty of that too).

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#76

Post by gmd63 »

dartos wrote: post #72
gmd63 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working with a labmate is also constant surveillance. I think you're dressing it up to be something far more negative than it actually is. I think streaming or recording would decrease cynicism. The openness would allow scientists to avoid false idolatry of people who juiced their citations with fraudulent research. And the cost of dealing with the fallout from fraud would be eliminated. I suspect that the fraud itse…

A labmate and a permanent recording are not comparable levels of surveillance. Especially if that recording is publicly accessible.

I just find it odd that people think folks who allegedly value observation enough to make it their full time job would be against observing themselves.

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#77

Post by [deleted] »

freework wrote: post #39
einpoklum wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most theoretical/abstract pursuits, from math to comparative literature, "doing the science" means "writing the text of the paper" - and nothing else; shall I film myself doing that? On second thought, maybe I could make a video of how I manage all of those dirty LaTeX tricks to squeeze my paper into less pages, at least there's some tangible payoff there...

> "doing the science" means "writing the text of the paper" The point is to show your work. You film yourself setting up the experiment to prove that you actually did the experiment. You also film yourself collecting the results, proving that you actually got the results you claim. The only kind of science that consists of "just writing the paper" is math. Math will be exempt from this requirement. Fake math is not a…

[deleted]

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#78

Post by georgeecollins »

operatingthetan wrote: post #36
sethammons wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society works on trust. That said, my bank/credit card company would not work with us when we were scammed with $10k of obviously fraudulent charges. Our next recourse will have to be legal action. There are reports of gas stations using more ethanol than labeled. I saw a tiktok last week on someone who brought in their own scale to walmart and the packaged meat was labeled at like 6 lbs but was actually under 5. My…

Yeah we need to inspect things carefully because we are getting scammed and lied to all the time. Olive oil being cut, fish being sold as the wrong species, supplements containing random other substances, there are a million examples in products in particular.

Sure so I am going to inspect olive oil for myself?

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#79

Post by georgeecollins »

doubloon wrote: post #60
georgeecollins wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There’s few if any establishments I trust anymore. Sorry, but that's tin foil hat territory. Everyday I trust my bank to handle my money fairly, the gas station to give the right amount of gas, the labels on food and medicine to be accurate, the weather report, etc. etc. I am sure there are problems with virtually every institution that need to be addressed. But I am surrounded by reliable information and trusted…

i actually work at a financial institution and you should not trust your bank, you should review your statements and complain if you find errors. which you will.

I work at a movie company and when we say "you'll laugh and you'll cry.." during a movie you absolutely will laugh and cry. I guarantee it.

Re: Researchers taking on fraudulent science

#80

Post by operatingthetan »

georgeecollins wrote: post #78
operatingthetan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah we need to inspect things carefully because we are getting scammed and lied to all the time. Olive oil being cut, fish being sold as the wrong species, supplements containing random other substances, there are a million examples in products in particular.

Sure so I am going to inspect olive oil for myself?

That's not within your skills?
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