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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#321

Post by fishtoaster »

Jabbles wrote: post #290
fishtoaster wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer a system like this. At my current company in fact, it's formalized. We work X hours a week, and if you work any more, it goes to vacation. Actually, you work X - 4 hours a week, every week the entire year with no vacation, such that it you actually work X hours every week, you end up with (52 x 4 =) 208 hours of vacation a year. So, for example, I'm in crunch mode for the next week working X+3 or X+4 hours a…

(X/5)+3 I presume? Your system sounds good. Do you also have the flexibility of working weekends in lieu of weekdays or at home instead of the office?

Yeah, you can work from home whenever, so long as you're generally in the office for core hours on weekdays, or let people know that you're going to be out. Eg, I wanted to go camping Fri-Sun, so I worked a few hours on the previous weekends.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#322

Post by kamaal »

skerrit_bwoy wrote: post #301
bmelton wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true at all, actually. I just did some (admittedly) anecdotal job searches for radiology, and there's a $150k price difference between New York and Indiana. I knew a few attorneys that have moved into the DC area to raise their rates (and one who commutes two hours in to DC because otherwise, his billable rate is halved.) The positions people are paid also depend on the cost of living in the area…

You've got it exactly twisted about docs, read this for clarity: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012... Choice quote: "As in Medscape's 2011 survey, the highest-earning physicians practice in the North Central region, comprising Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, and South and North Dakota; the mean income of physicians there is $234,000. The next-highest earners were doctors in the Great Lake…

>>Programmers seem to think of themselves as laborers

Worse than that in fact. Never heard of any labor union that would be OK with workers putting in extra hours without overtime pay.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#323

Post by jshen »

luser001 wrote: post #303
jshen wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pedantic precision should be common for a programmer. This is really easy, he could have said, "I will only work overtime in exceptional cases, and those should be very rare." This is what I usually say in interviews. "under no circumstances will I work overtime" has a very clear meaning.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

LOL, do you hear yourself?

The OP said "under no circumstances will I work overtime". Someone says that he really meant "i will sometimes do overtime".

I said, "he could have said I will rarely do overtime, only for exceptional cases".

And you claim that this isn't more precise? Did you pass reading comprehension in grade school?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#324

Post by pgroves »

tensor wrote: post #253
waterlesscloud wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise salaries and attract developers from outside your area. The problem was that you weren't actually offering "competitive" salaries, you were merely offering what may have been standard for your area but no longer was sufficient, by your own report.

When someone says "there is a shortage of oil" it is indeed true that oil costs skyrocket. It is also true that there is a shortage of oil. Shortages cause prices to increase, so much so that many people might not be able to afford a resource at all. It's a bit silly to say "there are no shortages! Only cheap consumers!"

But the point is that if you drive to a gas station, there is gas to buy. Imagine you drive a delivery truck, the price of gas goes up, and you go out of business. It means you didn't have a profitable enough business to handle the reality of the market you operate in.

Companies that complain about not being able to afford decent developers are just saying they don't have a strong enough company to cover the costs of the inputs to their business. It doesn't matter if the input is oil, steel, baking powder, or software developers.

Companies that can afford high developer salaries when there is a shortage are the ones that get a high enough ROI on a developer's time that they can actually buy more of that time at the current market rates, and still have enough left over to pay the executives.

It's not about being cheap vs. generous.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#325

Post by csaba »

Try to work as webdev in Hungary (mostly php, rails and other mainstream languages are not really used). I know a place where you could get about $1200. But that's the rare case. For a freshman $400 is the max, if you're not lucky enough to born in Budapest. I deeply consider moving somewhere abroad, because here I don't feel I can be as good as I want to be...

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#326

Post by Apreche »

elliottcarlson wrote: post #297
devs1010 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

caring about family more than job != not caring about job I'm not sure how you get that out of what he said, you could conceivably care more about your job than anything BUT your family which is still a lot of caring, IMO

I am looking at it from a prospective employer. As I said, it may not be the case, but stating that he would not work more than 40 hours under any circumstances would lead me to believe this and would cause him to not get hired. He could be an excellent worker, gets all his work done on time and be able to leave on time every day of the year - but in the back of my head I am still thinking about that 40 hour limit an…

It's cool that you wouldn't hire me, because I wouldn't want to work for you, even if you did offer all those nice things. I can see it right in that post "use his talents." I am not a resource to be used. I am a person. We have both agreed upon a mutually beneficial agreement, and either of us may leave that agreement at any time. If you want resources to be used, go to the hardware store.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#327

Post by malandrew »

kamaal wrote: post #170
unreal37 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an overly simplistic way to look at it. There's a reason jobs in Timbuktu don't pay the same as jobs in NYC for any job type - all jobs from janitor to CEO. This is not unique to IT. You have to start by paying people a FAIR wage to cover their living expenses, and it goes up from there based on skills and experience. If you flatly reject a job that doesn't pay you based on some mythical calculation of "value…

I don't see anything wrong in getting paid proportional to 'value added' for one simple reason : My employer makes the same money as somebody in another geographical area but wants to pay me less than what he would be paying me in that geographical area. The difference goes in his pocket, while extracts the same work from me. FAIR wage is not meant to cover your living expenses, they supposed to compensate you for yo…

... and working to put profit only in someone else's pocket.

If a firm is in Memphis instead of NYC and selling their services to essentially the same clients, then the owners of that business are already earning a greater profit on other cheaper operating costs like commercial real estate. By accepting a lower salary that simply covers a comfortable style of living you're simply putting even more money in the owner's pocket instead of yours.

It's a classic case of pareto optimality. The only explanation I can think of is that many developers don't see themselves as professionals commanding the salaries of professionals as skerrit_bwoy pointed out. There is no reason that good developer in any market shouldn't be living at the exact same standard of living as the good doctors, lawyers, finance people in that market. They should be living in the same homes and sending their kids to the same schools, etc.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#328

Post by Apreche »

luser001 wrote: post #303
jshen wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pedantic precision should be common for a programmer. This is really easy, he could have said, "I will only work overtime in exceptional cases, and those should be very rare." This is what I usually say in interviews. "under no circumstances will I work overtime" has a very clear meaning.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

There is probably some circumstance I would work a little extra. Seriously, you want ever comment on every blog to be written like a legal contract or a game rulebook? I wasn't about to devote an entire paragraph covering every possible scenario where I may or may not work more or less hours. You get the idea.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#329

Post by malandrew »

Jabbles wrote: post #284
cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

30 days holiday per year also solves the "hero programmer" problem. Having to function without one professional for 30 days out of each year teaches that organization to function without that person and not rely on them in a way that makes them a single point of failure.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#330

Post by Apreche »

solsenNet wrote: post #229
Apreche wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I want to add one more thing, since everyone seems to like my comment. You can pay me too much money. If you give me say, a million dollars a year, I will work for one year, and then you will never see me again. I will go home and live my life as I please, and only code what I want to code. The code may or may not make money. I may or may not try. If I work at a startup that cashes out big, then I will travel the…

maybe you should start your own company? seems to me you chaff quite a bit about being a "wage slave"

I am incredibly risk averse. I will not take the chance of becoming homeless.
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