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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#231

Post by manmal »

pmjordan wrote: post #13

Some context/perspective on the Austrian employment situation: * Salaries are typically quoted per month, but there is a bonus of 2 months's salary paid per year, so yearly gross is 14 x monthly. The bonus is taxed at a lower marginal rate (6%, no social security contribution, IIRC, vs 37.5% lowest marginal rate). * There is no fixed minimum wage in Austria. Instead, there is a collective bargaining system, which set…

Austrian (currently self-employed) developer here. You are mostly right, except that:

Employees are not impossible to fire, that's a myth. There was this big Siemens layoff some years ago where several hundred developer lost their job, just because Siemens decided they are not into software anymore. Also, it is common to pressure people into signing mutual "job quit contracts" (don't know a better word).

How did you get screwed in Austria? I haven't been screwed yet, but I'm not doing much contract work in Austria anyways.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#232

Post by geebee »

I think a big part of the problem is that employers are competing only for the pool of existing programmers. This makes sense - the bigger problem (expanding the size of the pool) is beyond the influence of almost all employers (maybe the giants facebook and google can influence this somewhat).

As a result, only very incremental progress can be made. If the standard salary is 70k, employers will balk at offering more than 80k. If they have to offer 90k, they'll feel that a bad shortage exists, because they're offering way above the "market" salary - causing them to conclude that good devs can't be had "at any price".

Here's what I think they don't get - to really solve this, they need to start attracting people from other professions. They need to get the top minds that are currently going into medicine, law, finance, and so forth (well, the percentage that could and would go into software development if they rewards were greater).

Honestly, I don't see industry ever making this jump. I think they'll keep competing for the same smallish pool of talent and scratching their heads about why they can't attract more candidates for an incremental increase in pay/benefits.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#233

Post by fishtoaster »

losvedir wrote: post #165
elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

40 hrs a week doesn't necessarily mean 8 hours a day. I think it's a reasonable demand by someone that if they stay late one day putting out a fire they're free to leave early on Friday or something. It was sort of like this at one of my previous finance jobs where I was expected to work no more than 60 hours a week (due to their allotment towards me of salary + overtime). Sometimes on Friday I'd get to leave a bit a…

I prefer a system like this. At my current company in fact, it's formalized. We work X hours a week, and if you work any more, it goes to vacation. Actually, you work X - 4 hours a week, every week the entire year with no vacation, such that it you actually work X hours every week, you end up with (52 x 4 =) 208 hours of vacation a year.

So, for example, I'm in crunch mode for the next week working X+3 or X+4 hours a day. And then I'm taking a 2.5 week trip to Nepal a month or so afterwards. Crunch time happens, and we can't afford to thumb our nose at it, but this system means that it can never become the norm.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#234

Post by solsenNet »

Microsoft has learned a trick about recruiting straight from college developers.

Microsoft quotes the new higher a large number (120k per year) but it is all back end weighted to a bonus at the 15th month or some sort.

this allows Microsoft to see the work product and fire the ones that don't cut it, way before the bonus comes.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#235

Post by kamaal »

randomdata wrote: post #199
throwaway1979 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sir ... I tip my hat to you. Can you elaborate on #3? Are you in the US? Did you move to a cheaper location? I don't understand how the future's going to play out with respect to retirement. I'm in my early 30s if that helps. I looked for a financial planner ... but could not find any in my area. Just financial advisers wanting to sell me the latest "product". Any books/tips? Funny story: my fiance and I got went to…

I'm beginning to suspect the math is so bleak that it isn't possible :( I'm starting to come to that conclusion myself. They say you need $1M to retire today. With inflation, we're probably talking at least $2M by the time I'm ready to retire. Given that you and I are of similar age, these are critical times for compounding our retirement funds. With so little investment opportunity right now for the average investor…

This reminds me of a saying my friend told a while ago, 'You need money to make money'.

Like it or not, you definitely need to work hard but you absolutely must have luck on your side.

A lot of people work hard to just survive. Only a few make it. In order to get rich enough to retire comfortably. You not only have to get rich but also get rich early and quickly to invest and multiply your money.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#236

Post by cbsmith »

geebee wrote: post #232

I think a big part of the problem is that employers are competing only for the pool of existing programmers. This makes sense - the bigger problem (expanding the size of the pool) is beyond the influence of almost all employers (maybe the giants facebook and google can influence this somewhat). As a result, only very incremental progress can be made. If the standard salary is 70k, employers will balk at offering more…

It works both ways though. A programmer position that makes business sense at 40K might not make any sense at 90K. It's not like all companies need programmers regardless of price. If the price is too high, they can just go another way.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#238

Post by tluyben2 »

I see people getting low salaries who do not assert themselves. I know of friends and employees who are capable of sticking up for themselves getting over twice the amount the ones get who do not. Employees who don't ask for a raise don't get one as apparently they don't want one.

One of my best friends (developer) gets FAR too little for his experience, intelligence etc, but when I tell him to ask for more he says that he's happy like this and he doesn't care. Most devs (I met here and I met a lot) are like that; of the 100s of devs we employed we had maybe 30 asking for a raise directly. The rest (and we are talking a period of 12 years now) are just happily plodding along. People rather have the boss not whine when they don't turn up after a boozer or when they want to suddenly out with the family than more money. Fine.

I'm from EU, the Netherlands. Most people are know are not very money focused; quality of life is the word. A lot of them work less to spend time with their kids/family and most are happy making nice money to live, go on vacation twice a year (and the trend here is to go inside of EU because 'there is enough beauty, why go further?', which is often much cheaper than flying to the other side of the world) and have a good pension.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#239

Post by kamaal »

skrebbel wrote: post #207
Jasber wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity why would you rather be a garbage man than write Python for a living?

Usually when I explain this, I get downvoted by the HN Pythonista downvote mafia, but since you asked, I'll take that risk. In essence, I think Python is the mediocre features of all languages combined. It's a mish-mash of ideas, badly mish-mashed together. I don't want to use a mediocre language. - It's object-oriented, but not consistently so (len() anyone?) - It's object-oriented, but not really the standard libra…

Any attempt to compare with something else is going to make you disappointed. I am not a Python fan either, but Python has its own use cases for which its well suited. Its barrier to entry is low, and a lot of web frameworks are around.

To give you small example. Today I just solved a problem by chaining sed and cat statements through pipes, whereas the guy next to me considers usage of anything apart from Java as a waste of time. Any attempt to convince him why spending one whole day writing a Java program is not worth, when something like sed can do the task in minutes is futile.

Because your mind is trained to think in one specific language and its ecosystem, you find it difficult to embrace anything else. No matter what its merits are.

Python has its own warts. But it useful for a lot of problems.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#240

Post by spullara »

manmal wrote: post #231
pmjordan wrote: post #13

Some context/perspective on the Austrian employment situation: * Salaries are typically quoted per month, but there is a bonus of 2 months's salary paid per year, so yearly gross is 14 x monthly. The bonus is taxed at a lower marginal rate (6%, no social security contribution, IIRC, vs 37.5% lowest marginal rate). * There is no fixed minimum wage in Austria. Instead, there is a collective bargaining system, which set…

Austrian (currently self-employed) developer here. You are mostly right, except that: Employees are not impossible to fire, that's a myth. There was this big Siemens layoff some years ago where several hundred developer lost their job, just because Siemens decided they are not into software anymore. Also, it is common to pressure people into signing mutual "job quit contracts" (don't know a better word). How did you…

A layoff is not considered being fired.
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