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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#281

Post by carlob »

gopi wrote: post #211
carlob wrote: post #139

I wouldn't compare European salaries with US so quickly. I have a cautionary tale to tell: when in 1990 the USSR collapsed, many Russian physicists decided to move abroad, some to western Europe, some to the USA. At first the European ones were complaining about their lower salaries, but once they started having kids and needing more medical care, they realized that they were actually much better off than their Ameri…

I see this argument (Europe is superior) made again and again. Let me try to clear the misconceptions. Please note i am a immigrant in US and somewhat qualified to compare it with the other countries. 1, Public education is free in US. Of-course the quality varies depending on which school district you live. But in most metros (other than NYC/Bay area/north east) you will be able to buy a 4 bedroom house in a good sc…

1. [Public education]. If one supposes a good public school in the US is comparable to schools in France or Scandinavia, which I doubt, the issue of secondary education being at least 10 times more expensive remains.

2. [Healthcare]. Not all insurance plans are equal and most of them do not cover limitlessly. In the unlucky event of something like cancer, Americans are left bankrupt, Europeans are not.

3. [Vacation]. Most of the times those two weeks actually include sick leave. Moreover taking one month of unpaid vacation can be a career suicide, so people don't actually do it.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#282

Post by mgkimsal »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #258
sanxiyn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: basic skills. I think we have a big problem with schools. Why don't they teach how to test? Why don't they teach how to debug? Really, what are they teaching that is more important than these basic skills?

It depends on your degree. I went in for a Computer Science degree. I heard the words "testing" and "source control" precisely zero times in class. I should have gone the Software Engineering route, because there, at least they had actual projects they had to deliver to complete a class.

I'm knowing people who are getting "web developer" certificates and degrees, and who also never hear the words "testing" or "source control". In 2012. Sad.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#284

Post by Jabbles »

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for?

As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#285

Post by eli_gottlieb »

skerrit_bwoy wrote: post #268
bmelton wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't actually paid based on cost of living, per se, but as that factors in so heavily, it can swing the value proportionally. If I move back to Memphis, TN, I can make approximately half of what I make now in the DC area to live as comfortably as I do. Does that mean I'm worth half as much? No. Does it mean I should expect to make half as much? Pretty much, yeah. Beyond meeting my basic needs (rent, food, whate…

WHY DO PROGRAMMERS THINK LIKE THIS? A radiologist makes $350k whether he's in Manhattan or Memphis. A hedge fund analyst makes comparable, whether he's in LA or Louisville. A BIGLAWyer makes comparable, whether he's in Chicago or Charlestown. They are paid for the value of services rendered, and the doctors, bankers, and lawyers I know seem perfectly content to maximize their income while minimizing their expenses. O…

Most of the software companies in Memphis are probably selling to relatively local customers, thus tying their income to the local markets. The software companies selling to everyone everywhere are in the big tech hubs.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#286

Post by skerrit_bwoy »

SatvikBeri wrote: post #44
mgkimsal wrote: post #6

most companies don't know how to value the contributions of software developers. i'm not actually sure they know how to value the contributions of most employees, period, except for salespeople. However as a dev, I'm biased some. I do think the potential for high value contributions, and the ability to avoid even costlier mistakes, is higher in the IT/dev dept vs other corporate departments. Several years ago I was o…

> How does one put a value on the savings experienced devs bring to a company, in terms of simply not making bone-headed decisions which cost a lot to fix later on? This is not saying I'm perfect - of course I'd make some mistakes. But mine would be harder to detect ;) Learning how to translate your value as a developer into dollars is an extremely useful skill that will help you gain a lot of respect and earn more.…

Precisely. It's a business, treat it as such. If you want to focus on The Holy Craft Of Programming, get a PhD and good luck with the academic track. Otherwise, go into business as a businessman who happens to be an excellent programmer. (Assuming you don't want to be underpaid and unappreciated your entire career.)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#287

Post by matwood »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #270
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

> "Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you won't be out of business in any short span of time and you won't bounce a check. Also, under no circumstances do I work more than 40 hours a week." There was a time, after the crash of 2000, when programmers actually had a difficult time finding work. It doesn't matter what the career, training or job, this stuff goes in cycles,…

All the more reason to get the most of what you can out of the inequality before the cycle swings back the other way.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#288

Post by aMtnViewer »

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

You sound like an arrogant dick. Who the hell would want to work with you?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#289

Post by devs1010 »

dr_ wrote: post #151
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

Doctors don't have infinite sick days, many don't have 30 vacation days (I barely take a week off a year), and most don't have 40 hr work weeks.

I have a relative who is a doctor in an ER and they are essentially an independent contractor (not on a W2), they don't really get any sick days, per se, they are paid for what they work (at a very high rate, or I think a share of the income for that month for their department, something like that) but they have to manage it as a business, essentially (own health insurance, etc), I think its different for some as they may be an employee (like for Kaiser) but a lot are contractors.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#290

Post by Jabbles »

fishtoaster wrote: post #233
losvedir wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40 hrs a week doesn't necessarily mean 8 hours a day. I think it's a reasonable demand by someone that if they stay late one day putting out a fire they're free to leave early on Friday or something. It was sort of like this at one of my previous finance jobs where I was expected to work no more than 60 hours a week (due to their allotment towards me of salary + overtime). Sometimes on Friday I'd get to leave a bit a…

I prefer a system like this. At my current company in fact, it's formalized. We work X hours a week, and if you work any more, it goes to vacation. Actually, you work X - 4 hours a week, every week the entire year with no vacation, such that it you actually work X hours every week, you end up with (52 x 4 =) 208 hours of vacation a year. So, for example, I'm in crunch mode for the next week working X+3 or X+4 hours a…

(X/5)+3 I presume?

Your system sounds good. Do you also have the flexibility of working weekends in lieu of weekdays or at home instead of the office?

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