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Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

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Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#101

Post by nickthegreek »

belltaco wrote: post #86
nickthegreek wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing we are capable of reading beyond the headline. Recall once again is the correct word here. Every single time Tesla gets a recall (kinda often aint it?) there are people in HN comments who just want to fight over a word. There are federal safety standards and Tesla is not implementing them correctly, NHTSA issues a recall, full stop.

> Good thing we are capable of reading beyond the headline People don't read articles on tech forums like this so frequently that RTFA is a common meme. > Every single time Tesla gets a recall (kinda often aint it?) there are people in HN comments who just want to fight over a word You only think it's often because the other ones don't get reported on HN, creating the false impression. > According to the National Hig…

> You only think it's often because the other ones don't get reported on HN, creating the false impression.

Tesla & Other car companies have way too many recalls. Someone else also failing does not negate the amount of recalls Tesla is doing or change the frequency at which they occur. I do agree that Tesla recalls gain wider internet spotlight. I believe that is largely due to Musk himself is attracted to the spotlight. I couldn’t name you the name of ceo of another car company, and tbh I think that is a good thing. It is widely known that scrutiny increases the more you of a public figure you are. Especially so if you are a divisive one.

The headline is not misleading, it is accurate.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#102

Post by jeff_tyrrill »

nickthegreek wrote: post #69
wvenable wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the word "recall" means "a public call by a manufacturer for the return of a product that may be defective or contaminated" or more plainly "a call to return". If you don't have to return the item somewhere then it isn't a "recall" by definition. An over-the-air software update is not a "recall". The terminology has to change. A "recall" is a typically an inconvenient event for the owners of a product -- this ai…

That is not what the word recall means. That is what you want it to mean. The governing body here is the NHTSA, here is their recall page where the term is defined. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls >A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and re…

> That is not what the word recall means. That is what you want it to mean.

No, it is the plain dictionary meaning of "recall"[1] (see sense #7, which states the "return of (a faulty product)".

Words in headlines should be the plain dictionary meaning, not a legal term of art for specialists.

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recall

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#103

Post by nickthegreek »

jeff_tyrrill wrote: post #102
nickthegreek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what the word recall means. That is what you want it to mean. The governing body here is the NHTSA, here is their recall page where the term is defined. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls >A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and re…

> That is not what the word recall means. That is what you want it to mean. No, it is the plain dictionary meaning of "recall"[1] (see sense #7, which states the "return of (a faulty product)". Words in headlines should be the plain dictionary meaning, not a legal term of art for specialists. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recall

Then put your head in the sand. It’s not changing. The is and will continue to be called a Recall. No amount of chest beating or saber rattling is going to change that. Of all the inane concerns that I see appear on HN, this is the most ricidulous.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#104

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #100
bumby wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, this misses the point. A better statement would speak to how many of those recalls pertain to well-established regulations that were not implemented by the manufacturer. I drew that distinction earlier when I wrote of recalls that relate to non-standardized issues. This was a recall about a highly standardized requirement that was not implemented. So the question is why wasn’t it implemented? Lack of competenc…

The vast majority of safety-related recalls across all automobiles involve seat belts, brakes, electrical components or wiring, tires, door latches, fuel pumps, and ignition switches. The fact that you think the font-size of an indicator somehow is indicative of a larger problem makes no sense to me. We can look at actual data -- this minor thing being a "test" that they failed is just something you want be significa…

I’ve made no claim that Tesla is any better or worse than other manufacturers. Rather, I’ve simply used this data point as a potential red flag. I have worked in auto manufacturing so I at least have some experience here. I’ve been equally critical of other manufacturers when there is evidence of process gaps that miss requirements. But Tesla has a not-so-great record when it comes to quality, so there’s more than this single data point. I haven’t t framed this as “Tesla vs. E’rybody” but it’s telling that how you think of it.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#105

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #104
wvenable wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of safety-related recalls across all automobiles involve seat belts, brakes, electrical components or wiring, tires, door latches, fuel pumps, and ignition switches. The fact that you think the font-size of an indicator somehow is indicative of a larger problem makes no sense to me. We can look at actual data -- this minor thing being a "test" that they failed is just something you want be significa…

I’ve made no claim that Tesla is any better or worse than other manufacturers. Rather, I’ve simply used this data point as a potential red flag. I have worked in auto manufacturing so I at least have some experience here. I’ve been equally critical of other manufacturers when there is evidence of process gaps that miss requirements. But Tesla has a not-so-great record when it comes to quality, so there’s more than th…

I haven't framed it that way either but if you're going to be biased based on this single data point, it would make sense to compare it other similar data points across all auto manufacturers. My personal feeling is that the existence of this article itself is bias as there are literally hundreds of auto recalls every year and we are spending on awful lot of time on this particularly minor one.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#106

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #105
bumby wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve made no claim that Tesla is any better or worse than other manufacturers. Rather, I’ve simply used this data point as a potential red flag. I have worked in auto manufacturing so I at least have some experience here. I’ve been equally critical of other manufacturers when there is evidence of process gaps that miss requirements. But Tesla has a not-so-great record when it comes to quality, so there’s more than th…

I haven't framed it that way either but if you're going to be biased based on this single data point, it would make sense to compare it other similar data points across all auto manufacturers. My personal feeling is that the existence of this article itself is bias as there are literally hundreds of auto recalls every year and we are spending on awful lot of time on this particularly minor one.

What makes you think I'm biased? In case you missed it, I said I'm also critical of other manufacturers. Pointing out a potential problem does not make someone biased. It seems like you interpret any criticism of Tesla as inherently biased which, ironically, is it's own biased worldview.

I think where we differ is that I don't think everything hinges on the word "recall." The article could be titled "2MM Teslas to be fixed OTA to correct non-conformance to legal design standards" It's still true, carries the same connotations, and is completely void of the loaded term you're hung up on.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#107

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #106
wvenable wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't framed it that way either but if you're going to be biased based on this single data point, it would make sense to compare it other similar data points across all auto manufacturers. My personal feeling is that the existence of this article itself is bias as there are literally hundreds of auto recalls every year and we are spending on awful lot of time on this particularly minor one.

What makes you think I'm biased? In case you missed it, I said I'm also critical of other manufacturers. Pointing out a potential problem does not make someone biased. It seems like you interpret any criticism of Tesla as inherently biased which, ironically, is it's own biased worldview. I think where we differ is that I don't think everything hinges on the word "recall." The article could be titled "2MM Teslas to be…

I'm pointing out that this particular article's existence and discussion is biased. The headline is obvious click bait. The issue is so minor as to not require our interest at all.

"All Teslas everywhere to get marginally larger indicator icons to match standards" is not an interesting article. And this article isn't interesting. It's only interesting in contrast to it's headline and that's why we are discussing it.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#108

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #107
bumby wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think I'm biased? In case you missed it, I said I'm also critical of other manufacturers. Pointing out a potential problem does not make someone biased. It seems like you interpret any criticism of Tesla as inherently biased which, ironically, is it's own biased worldview. I think where we differ is that I don't think everything hinges on the word "recall." The article could be titled "2MM Teslas to be…

I'm pointing out that this particular article's existence and discussion is biased. The headline is obvious click bait. The issue is so minor as to not require our interest at all. "All Teslas everywhere to get marginally larger indicator icons to match standards" is not an interesting article. And this article isn't interesting. It's only interesting in contrast to it's headline and that's why we are discussing it.

We can agree that the article is sensationalist and not particularly interesting. I personally don't get hung up on that because it's what I expect. Just like I'm not shocked when a used car dealer describes a vehicle in unscrupulous terms. It's what I expect because it aligns with their incentive structure.

But note that you did your own editorializing by using the word "marginally." You've staked a claim that the recall is insignificant. But that view is in direct conflict with the regulators, and it's their opinion that matters.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#109

Post by [deleted] »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #84
falcolas wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe NHTSA forcing Tesla to fix a safety issue is not worth calling out, in particular to TSLA shareholders? The solution to many recalls these days is a software update. Cars are becoming computers with wheels...

I don't believe they fixed a safety issue though. They replaced a brake icon with a "P" inside it with the word "PARK". To me those indicate two different things. The first is obviously the parking brake. Most would think that "PARK" refers to an automatic transmission, which a Tesla doesn't have... To me this is an example of red tape making things worse.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#110

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #108
wvenable wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pointing out that this particular article's existence and discussion is biased. The headline is obvious click bait. The issue is so minor as to not require our interest at all. "All Teslas everywhere to get marginally larger indicator icons to match standards" is not an interesting article. And this article isn't interesting. It's only interesting in contrast to it's headline and that's why we are discussing it.

We can agree that the article is sensationalist and not particularly interesting. I personally don't get hung up on that because it's what I expect. Just like I'm not shocked when a used car dealer describes a vehicle in unscrupulous terms. It's what I expect because it aligns with their incentive structure. But note that you did your own editorializing by using the word "marginally." You've staked a claim that the r…

It is marginally; they indicators are very tiny bit too small. Regulators operate in a binary -- either something is compliant or not. Those ideas are not in conflict.
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