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Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#141

Post by dpkirchner »

lars_francke wrote: post #10

> While I have no reason to doubt Daniel's good faith, it's hard to believe that HN users would be tired of LLM-related news. I am, so you can believe it. But: I don't flag things that I'm tired of.

I will occasionally flag things that will result in discussions that are always the same because I'm tired of them. Stories about tipping at restaurants or Trump or Biden, for example -- literally every argument for or against has been made and there's nothing new or interesting to say. But I'm more likely to hide them.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#142

Post by wtallis »

ggdG wrote: post #120
wtallis wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reading the top comment on that post provides plenty of explanation why users would flag that post. Perhaps you're trying not to understand.

> I think reading the top comment on that post provides plenty of explanation why users would flag that post. That top comment complains that the HN title is WSJ's informative subheading instead of its clickbaity headline.

The top comment complains that the title submitted to HN is both not the original headline, and not an accurate characterization of the content of the article.

If there's no possible title to use for a submission that won't get it flagged, then clearly it's not a great article to be submitting.

And it's disingenuous for you to pretend that the issue is HN users being unwilling to reexamine the public health response to Covid-19, when the submission is clearly flouting HN's rules. (The paywall doesn't help its viability as an HN submission, either.)

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#143

Post by s1artibartfast »

matt_heimer wrote: post #92

> The assumption is that a Story cannot go from the top 30 to a position higher than 90 in a single minute, without having been explicitly removed. I'm not sure this is a valid assumption. https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39094387 looks to be a story that dropped to the thirties pretty quickly. Maybe due to other suddenly popular content? Looking at the 13 stories listed for Monday, January 22, 2024 only 3…

I dont understand what "explicit" means here.

If it gets algorithmically deranked for user flags, but but not hidden, is that explicit?

I assume "explicit" means manual moderator intervention, but I don't really see anything that suggests that.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#144

Post by _Algernon_ »

wolverine876 wrote: post #84
TheCoreh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a quick glance, I found several that don't match that criteria you mention, here are a few: Open Source Doesn't Require Providing Builds https://codeengineered.com/blog/2024/open-source-not-builds/ Sam Altman Says AI Using Too Much Energy Will Require Breakthrough Energy Source https://futurism.com/sam-altman-energy-breakthrough Avoid Async Rust at All Cost https://blog.hugpoint.tech/avoid_async_rust.html (Perhaps…

I don't agree with the GP at all. Most seem normal for the front page or the intellectual curiosity standard (I mean, personally I'd like a much higher standard, but I'm basing it on what HN already has). All from only one day: * Ford's new 48-inch digital dashboard is a lot of Android for one car: https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/22/24045932/ford-android-scr... * Secret Plan Against Germany (a very big story in Germa…

The second one is both sensationalist clickbait[1] and politics. It was rightly removed:

>Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It's not as if the internet is lacking in places where this can be discussed freely.

[1]: As in you have to click the link to see what it is about, and to decide if it is interesting or relevant to read.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#145

Post by captainpiggies »

nemothekid wrote: post #43
lars_francke wrote: post #10

> While I have no reason to doubt Daniel's good faith, it's hard to believe that HN users would be tired of LLM-related news. I am, so you can believe it. But: I don't flag things that I'm tired of.

There was some heavy handed moderation decision that moot made, can't remember what, but he enforced it by saying " One man's shitpost is another man's board culture ". I think about that a lot when it comes to moderation because people tend to assume everyone in the community is just like them; and really only moderators have a gauge on how saturated certain can be. It's also why I don't like the "free speech at all…

Why does seeing moot quoted suddenly make me feel old.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#146

Post by verticalscaler »

tptacek wrote: post #131
ggdG wrote: post #89

> In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. I don't understand why this story was removed: "It turns out the six-feet social-distancing rule had no scientific basis", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39200511 On a forum with an overwhelmingly science-minded audience, it bothers me that an important topic like that is deemed untouchable.

Stories about COVID controversies are almost certainly getting flagged off the front page by users, not touched by mods. People look at the titles of these stories and think that's all flaggers are going by, but lots of people flag stories based on their experience of what the threads are like, and the threads on COVID controversies are fucking dreadful. I didn't flag (or see) that story, but I would have.

But why must they be dreadful? Genuine question, I am not being obtuse. We should be able as a community to discuss conterversial subjects somehow.

I also think this sort of thing invites flag brigades. Or better yet, a small batch of bad actor can easily start brigading and forcefully associate such flamewar expectations with any subject they don't like to drive it off HN.

Maybe worth reconsidering how you flag? You might be getting played. Or not, I really don't know. No obvious answers.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#147

Post by dang »

maxbond wrote: post #132
dang wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to believe that HN users would be tired of LLM-related news For sure many are. This happens with every Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) and LLMs are way beyond a MOT [1]. The hivemind tires of repetition extremely quickly [2]. The trick is to try to separate wheat from chaff, where 'wheat' means the stories that bring Significant New Information (SNI) [3] and 'chaff' means the follow-up and copycat stories, whic…

Have you ever considered writing a book about what you've learned about moderation and community? You seem to have developed these concepts pretty extensively. Seeing you break down this terminology whets my appetite to hear from you in long form.

I'd be pretty miserable doing that, but one of these years I'd like to condense the past explanations into something a bit more definitive and put them up as sort of glosses on the site guidelines. I imagine most of those HN Search links I'm constantly posting could be replaced by a link to some sort of canonical paragraph on the topic.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#148

Post by nathanyz »

happytoexplain wrote: post #124
nathanyz wrote: post #111

Long overdue transparency. Sometimes these are innocuous or warranted removals, but there is also an element of protectionism at play. And that may not even be due to mod actions, but blocks of users who all flag articles to get them pushed to no mans land. There are companies who if you submit a negative post about, within short order the post is pushed out of view of the top pages.

>blocks of users who all flag articles to get them pushed to no mans land This is just another way of saying that a critical numeric threshold of users didn't like something. Framing the opinions/actions of groups of people on the internet as conspiring or dog-piling is a fallacy. E.g. if a person Tweets something that a million people read and a hundred of them reply to disagree, you'll often see that person follow…

Except when it's not. If you don't think groups within organizations all message each other to quickly flag posts that are negative towards them, then you may be looking through this with an idealistic lens that hasn't been shattered yet.

I'm not denying your premise that yes sometimes independent people with no coordination, all flag an article. That is how the system should work. But there are also articles that will quickly get flagged through coordination of interested parties.

Hacker News has a lot more power than many think in terms of tastemaking in the tech industry. So there is a lot of motivation and benefit for people to manipulate its functionality to either boost or protect their business.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#149

Post by wtallis »

AlbertCory wrote: post #114
wtallis wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reading the top comment on that post provides plenty of explanation why users would flag that post. Perhaps you're trying not to understand.

Are you asserting that, if the title had remained "Anthony Fauchi [sic] Fesses Up" it would have remained, unflagged? Maybe you should Submit it again with the original title, and see what happens.

If it had been submitted with that title, it would simply have been harder to pretend there's wasn't plenty of reason for the submission to be flagged.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#150

Post by saagarjha »

verticalscaler wrote: post #146
tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stories about COVID controversies are almost certainly getting flagged off the front page by users, not touched by mods. People look at the titles of these stories and think that's all flaggers are going by, but lots of people flag stories based on their experience of what the threads are like, and the threads on COVID controversies are fucking dreadful. I didn't flag (or see) that story, but I would have.

But why must they be dreadful? Genuine question, I am not being obtuse. We should be able as a community to discuss conterversial subjects somehow. I also think this sort of thing invites flag brigades. Or better yet, a small batch of bad actor can easily start brigading and forcefully associate such flamewar expectations with any subject they don't like to drive it off HN. Maybe worth reconsidering how you flag? You…

We should, but we don’t.
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